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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Is Breast Best?

350 replies

ADaddy · 23/06/2011 13:08

First of all I want to say that my heart goes out to all the women out there that are struggling trying to breastfeed their child and feeling the pressure to continue.

My wife gave birth nearly 3 weeks ago and since then has had a really rough time with breastfeeding. I just wanted to share some words with women in a similar situation. I'll put them in points to be more concise.

  1. There is so much more to being a mother than just being a milk supply. Don't ever forget this!
  1. This is about feeding your baby. It is too bad that they don't have "Feeding councillors" rather than just "Breastfeeding councillors".
  1. Your baby's nutrition and hydration is vital. Don't feel guilty for making sure your baby has both of these.
  1. The well-being of the mother is also vital. You need to be there for your baby, does your experience with breastfeeding enhance your well-being or make you feel like the contents of your babies nappies?
  1. Unless there is imminent danger, Healthcare professionals will put breastfeeding above things such as sleep, washing, bonding, jaundice. It pains them to say the word "formula" so don't expect them too.
  1. Healthcare professionals are mainly interested in the colour of poo, if wee is coming out and if the baby is at least gaining some weight. In that case all is well, forget the rest. This is NOT a holistic approach and one of my main bug-bears with breastfeeding promotion. There is a much bigger, far more complicated picture to consider to determine if breastfeeding really is working for you.
  1. If you have a latch problem then they like that, they can help solve that. It's different when it is a supply problem, that is not always solvable and they tend to be in denial about it (mainly because it is far more difficult to solve).
  1. Demand feeding:
a. Is lack or sleep good for mother or milk supply or to that end baby?
b. Is not being able to find time to eat good for anyone?
c. Is no time to wash good?
d. Does baby sleep a lot and forget to demand only to wake up ravenous and too fractious to feed?  Can't be possible, this does not fit in the ideal world of demand feeding :)
e. No routine, no structure, no way for an adult human to live?
f. Are you told, don't worry, keep going your milk supply will come through soon?
g. Feels like it is driving you insane?  Maybe it is!
  1. Is the difficulty of breastfeeding affecting your bond with your baby? It is hard enough, healing, hormones, baby blues and worse, don't be pressurised into sacrificing this important step under some misguided notion that your baby will suffer by not being breastfed. He/She is likely to suffer more if you are not able to nuture this all important bond.

Of course, these questions and statements come from our personal experiences, although from what I have read on the internet, we are not alone.

If you read through my points and breastfeeding is still the right approach for you, great! If not, then do the best thing for you and the baby (yes, that is YOU too) and consider alternative approaches.

And before you ask, the only vested interest I have is in the health of my wife and baby and doing what is best for them.

Comments welcome.

OP posts:
TheRealMBJ · 24/06/2011 12:44

I will reiterate what I said earlier in the thread trained breastfeeding counsellors and peer-supporters do not advise but offer correct, up-to-date information and support, allowing the mother tho make her own decisions, ones she feels comfortable and (crucially) informed to make. Lactation consultants have the highest level of training in breastfeeding management and often have a medical background too.

You should really go and see one of these.

cloudydays · 24/06/2011 12:46

OP, I think that because you noted that you have a very young baby, and that your dw is still "struggling" to breastfeed and is having a "rough time" with it but has not given up, it is reasonable to expect that people with expertise or experience in overcoming problems like the ones you describe will offer advice and encourage you to consider how dw can be supported to continue to bf. This is not dogma, it's support.

I do understand (believe me) that even well-meaning advice and support can be felt as judgement and scepticism when you are in a vulnerable position as a new parent, and I think that people could be more sensitive to the fact that you're bound to feel protective and defensive of your dw when you are the one who's watching her cope with both the difficulties she's having and the (internal and external) pressure to make it work at all costs. But to be fair, I think that MoonFaceMama, Tiktok and some others are nothing if not well-meaning, and they do know what they're talking about. Don't lump them in with people offering nothing but dogma and judgement.

For what it's worth, I think the sexism you've been subject to on this thread really is deplorable. Not so much the playful, affectionate "my dh is so logical too" type posts (though that wouldn't go over well in reverse, would it? What would be the reaction if you'd posted "now I know that my dw is having the typical female, overly-emotional response to this..."). But the poster making assumptions that you're more concerned with having your dinner on the table than you are with the well-being of your wife and baby, and that your disagreements with some posters must be down to the fact that they're women, is really out of line. As is the implication from others that as a father you aren't entitled to your own view - independent to your dw's view, and maybe even expressed without her permission Shock - on your family's experience with breastfeeding, or on the broader issue of breastfeeding promotion.

If she does want to keep at it, though, there are worse things you coudl do than suggesting to her that she log on herself and explain in her own words the difficulties she's having.

sungirltan · 24/06/2011 12:55

'If you read through my points and breastfeeding is still the right approach for you, great! If not, then do the best thing for you and the baby (yes, that is YOU too) and consider alternative approaches.'

are you sponsored by nestle?

you make it sound as if bf is something only a fool would take on.

lastly the bf IS the bonding!

no wait... this thing about no routine not being a way to live - thats life with a nb - dont think if you ff then the baby will sleep all the time and feed every 4 hours - ha!

bf/dont bf but go what a preachy op

Mollcat · 24/06/2011 13:02

Can I just ask, on the OP's wife's behalf, what would be the number one priority thing to do? I know it will depend on what exactly the problems are but for example:

  • stay at home and feed to try and get better at latch/build supply vs go to bf support group?
  • if not going to bf support group, how to go about finding someone to come out to you who actually knows what they are talking about?

I ended up bewildered with the amount of conflicting info and advice, even from the same BF support group (I went with the one at the hospital and stuck to that in the end - it had the advantage of being 5 minutes' walk from the house but getting there still seemed to eat into time when I felt I should have been at home trying to get it right). It seems to me that you can waste a lot of valuable time getting unhelpful or confusing advice. I tried helplines but couldn't find anyone who would come to me, it was all groups which would have taken an age to get to on public transport - I had a section so couldn't drive and once my partner was back at work it was much harder. Added to the beating I was already giving myself (and I have had myself down a dark alley in a headlock many many times in the last 5.5 weeks) I then felt immense pressure to follow sometimes conflicting advice and massive guilt when I failed yet again to do what had been recommended.

If this family can only do one thing, which should it be? (Or better, which should they do first?)

sungirltan · 24/06/2011 13:03

a. Is lack or sleep good for mother or milk supply or to that end baby?
b. Is not being able to find time to eat good for anyone?
c. Is no time to wash good?
d. Does baby sleep a lot and forget to demand only to wake up ravenous and too fractious to feed? Can't be possible, this does not fit in the ideal world of demand feeding smile
e. No routine, no structure, no way for an adult human to live?
f. Are you told, don't worry, keep going your milk supply will come through soon?
g. Feels like it is driving you insane? Maybe it is!

apart from f - all of these are the challenges of PARENTING.

if you wanted help with bf issues why didnt you just post the problrms to see if mn could help. but you just tell US how it is yeh?

bigmouthstrikesagain · 24/06/2011 13:03

I think what you are misinterpreting op - or maybe failing to comprehend would be fairer (I do not intend to insult your inelligence btw just point out that you may be looking at the issue from an unhelpful perspective) - is that feeding your baby is not a problem to solve just a function that needs to be carried out - and depending on the mother bf may involve long regular feeds, shorter more frequent feeds or a combination - and be incredibly demanding/ demoralising etc. and difficult to fit with the demands of modern life. It is still the 'normal' way to feed an infant, no biased advice or 'agenda' will change that biological fact.

If you have insurmountable problems then we are very lucky to have formula readily available to feed your child with. The many experienced people on this thread are giving their views/ advice and the op has 3 weeks personal experience - it is a tad wilful to come out with generalisations about whether 'breast is best' based on that narrow experience. I have spent 7 years bf 3 children and can only really comment on my own experiences in as much as they are common with other women but are also entirely individual.

being very longwinded today - housework/ going out to do useful stuff procarastinationBlush

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins · 24/06/2011 13:07

"But the poster making assumptions that you're more concerned with having your dinner on the table than you are with the well-being of your wife and baby, and that your disagreements with some posters must be down to the fact that they're women, is really out of line."

aww go on have the guts to name me. Actually I am not out of line, have you read all his posts? He repeatedly says he is doing all this for his wife but I get the impression he wants us to agree with him so he can go to his wife and say "look mumsnet agree with me, lets give up all this breastfeeding nonsense".

Meita · 24/06/2011 13:09

I had a supply problem with DS. This was due to him not being well, not having enough energy to feed/sleeping through instead of feeding. My supply dropped, he got even less energy, supply dropped further. Viscious circle.

Yes, in such a case the viscious circle needs to be broken. I.e. in order for bf to succeed, top-ups need to be given (in some cases. In some cases it can be dealt with by doing feed-a-thons). A starving baby can't learn to successfully bf. I find that many disregard this and scare you away from ever giving a top-up of any kind, as it will 'cause nipple-confusion' or 'mess with your supply'. Sometimes it is the only way to save bf and the possible risks are risks you just need to take.

(I'm saying this because it can be quite true that there is a supply issue. In many cases this can be solved. It is not easy though. And I know that in some cases it can't be solved due to being physiological. But not knowing which it is, the former is more likely; and having a solvable supply issue, you basically have the choice of addressing the supply issue or switching to FF, but the question really doesn't have much to do with breast being best or not.)

In our case, the first 6 weeks or so were quite hellish. I hated it being hellish but knew that it wasn't because of bf per se. Hence didn't consider switching to FF as a solution to the hellishness.

Yes, I agree that sometimes it is not sustainable to continue as you are doing. In our case it would not have been sustainable for even a week longer than we did. If I hadn't had the support I did have, it wouldn't have been sustainable for even that long. Luckily, it doesn't need to be sustainable for any longer, because things do get easier. All by themselves.

I think there are two main fallacies in your kind of thinking about bf vs. ff.

  1. When weighing up bf vs. ff you go by what bf is like right now rather than by the big picture of what bf is like. Right now it is tough like shit, but it's six weeks compared to probably about 6 months of it being lots, lots easier (easier than FF too), in a way you (your wife) can probably not even imagine right now.
  2. When thinking about how bad life is right now, you blame bf too much. Lots of the toughness of life right now would be there no matter how you feed your baby. And the possible additional trouble caused by the bf (eg your wife needs to be awake for every single feed) can be helped by switching to FF but at the cost of gaining new troubles you don't currently have.

It's really up to you if you think battling it out for 6 weeks is worth it for 6 months (or more) of easiness (plus the advantages of bf over ff such as health - you'll be getting up with a sick baby less often, i.e. more sleep - and money, and faffing with sterilising, and such). And it's really up to you both if your wife just can't take it anymore and needs rest and respite right now and hence needs to give charge of feeding baby to you. Nobody should judge you on that.

So, in conclusion I'd say, yes breast is best. But formula is there for when the best solution doesn't work for you. And sometimes formula can help getting back to breast. So don't let anyone judge you on using formula, but there is equally no need to cast doubts on breast being best.

Mollcat · 24/06/2011 13:11

Sorry, TheRealMBJ' I know you've already answered this and apologies if I'm asking you to repeat yourself but there must be others reading who need help - would you say phone the LLL helpline or national breastfeeding helpline for example and say you really need the name of a local LC who will come to you?

When I called the NCT, they suggested ditching the nipple shields recommended by others and having a bath with the baby, or swaddling him, which drove him mad. Not bad advice, but didn't work as the issue was flat damaged nipples and huge breasts, among other things, but without the supporter being there she couldn't tell. Other helplines concluded with me that my best bet was to keep seeing the hospital infant feeding team and they were really great, but unfortunately couldn't change the shape of my nipples.

cloudydays · 24/06/2011 13:11

Queen why would I want to name you? Confused Nothing to do with 'hav[ing] the guts', seriously, what do you think I'd be afraid of? It's your sexist comments I had a problem with, not you, so I mentioned your comments, not you. Okie dokie?

MockingbirdsNotForSale · 24/06/2011 13:16

Screaming when coming off the breast after say an hour of feeding- most likely the baby had the milk and is using the breast for comfort and is upset that the fabulous comfort device is gone. Its not just food and crying isn't just about hunger. As my mum said to me when DD was comfort sucking. 'And what are you doing while she's comfort sucking? Resting? Good.' If it doesn't hurt- go with it. imo

kimberlina · 24/06/2011 13:20

OP did you come onto MN just to let off steam about how tough life is at the moment? If so, then fine, we all need to let those feelings out, especially in the first few weeks which can be a real shocker.

Or did you expect/want people to agree with you that breast is not best?

It's totally down to you/your wife. Stop BFing if you want, continue if you want (but then ask for more advice/help from people on here and BFing counsellors etc) or mix feed if you want.

Honestly - noone is going to judge your wife based on her decision. Especially as she has tried so hard. So base your decision on what is best for you as a family, not on what you think other people might or might not be thinking.

cloudydays · 24/06/2011 13:33

Really sensible, balanced post, Meita . Well said.

tiktok · 24/06/2011 13:34

It sounds as if there might be/might have been an issue with your baby's intake - this is not necessarily the same as 'a supply problem', as some mothers, especially in the early days, can make a lot of milk but if it is not getting into the baby then obv that's something that needs fixing.

You dont give details of your baby's weight and behaviour at the breast, and these are other important ways of assessing intake. The midwife who said your baby was not getting sufficient nutrition to grow properly may well have got the right info to make this assessment, and maybe she has observed your wife and baby feeding which would also help her.

Sorry if I am getting this wrong, but it sounds to me that you are wanting all this to be fixed by scheduling the baby, or by putting the baby onto a feeding routine, and this will just not work. Babies gain/catch up weight by increasing the volume of milk, by feeding more often. This can mean frequent feeding, day and night. This is not something that lasts forever, however - but of course it can be hard work while it does last.

I'm wondering if the consistent response you say you have had from the sources of help you have consulted have more or less said this - feed often, day and night, and accept that for the time being, your baby will need comfort and feeding and holding a lot, and will not like sleeping apart from his mum, and will cry after only a short time of being alone. You find this hard to accept because it is hard work - and you are looking for another solution.

There may not be another solution. This may what is needed at the moment to establish bf and to keep your baby comforted and growing.

I can see you don't always take to information that does not fit with your expectations - your scepticism about diet and bf is an example of this. You sneer at this because you find it hard to believe - and make a flippant remark about a mother being dead :(.

I think it is impossible that your wife will die of starvation. But if she is not eating well, or very often, her bf will not be affected. Her well-being may well suffer a bit, but the evidence in many studies, and indeed from what we know of biology, is that lactation is a physiological process that happens separate to the mother's own food intake. Just as you keep producing blood, and lymph, and spinal fluid, and continue breathing and moving, whether or not you are eating well, breastfeeding is largely unaffected.

Mothers do have variations in supply, and babies do have variations in needs. This need not mean bf is fragile, because the mothers whose production and storage 'system' is slower or lower can meet their babies' needs just as well - even when the baby's needs are great. A mother who produces smaller quantities of breastmillk will need to feed more often in the beginning, especially. This typically settles down after a while.

Whatever.....it has nothing to do with her own diet.

TheRealMBJ · 24/06/2011 13:36

Mollcat sorry about the delay (was just giving DS his lunch and getting the washing in before it starts raining. Again) Here is a list of registered IBCLCs in Great Britian many will be willing to come to you. There are even some who specialise in specific areas who are willing to travel long distances to lend support (Ann Dobson and Tongue-tie springs to mind))

Calling a helpline and asking if they know of someone near you who is willing to come to you could also work. As the helplines are staffed by unpaid, volunteer breastfeeding counsellors, many would be willing to travel and help but long distances may be ruled out due to cost. They cannot accept payment either, so that may be why you, personally, had trouble finding someone who could come to you.

Many common queries or concurs can be helped telephonically but (IMO) certain issues, such as supply etc are much better dealt with on a person-person basis.

I want to again state that it is not the place for BFCs or peer-supporters to advise, rather to give information, explain techniques, lend a listening ear and support. And allow the mother to make her own decisions

ADaddy · 24/06/2011 13:51

Thank you again cloudydays I understand that many of the posts (unfortunately not all) are well meaning.

I am confused that out of the range of people we have consulted in person, we are still in the same position. I read the advice given in these posts, and for the large part, it is still the same.

I have not presented my original post as anything other than my experience and opinion, jump on it if you like.

As I will repeat again, of all the people that have ever offered advice on this, there is little difference. So what would Mumsnet users suggest? Who should we consult that we haven't?

Actually, life when our baby is adequately fed is quite bearable and probably well within the normal limits of crazy, sleepless, emotional life with a newborn.

My post suggests that, contrary to what you are constantly told, perhaps breastfeeding isn't best for you when considering the bigger picture.

It is precisely the reactions and advice that we have received in just 3 weeks that prompt me to raise this question.

OP posts:
TheRealMBJ · 24/06/2011 13:59

Right, I am leaving this thread now.

You are clearly only interested in someone coming on here and agreeing with you. What is worse is that you don't just want someone to agree with you about your personal position but that it seems that you want us all to agree with you that in general breastfeeding is not best for all babies and their families. This is just wrong.

I am really starting to wonder whether you actually do have a wife...

sungirltan · 24/06/2011 14:04

adaddy - describe the ideal 'bigger picture'

fwiw imo bf is all about the bigger picture. of ocurse its hard work and much harder for some than others but the reward you get is optimum nutrition/benefits for mum and baby - even though you have to wait a while to see the results. happy to admit bf wont work out for everyone and no one is a failiure etc.

what you seem to want are improvements in the smaller picture - longer between feeds and more sleep. that is not the bigger picture.

sungirltan · 24/06/2011 14:05

ooops forgot - bigmouth and tiktok i loved your posts :)

tiktok · 24/06/2011 14:05

God, I am still mystified and confuddled and confused - OP, you have been given tons of suggestions about sources of help (breastfeeding support group; lactation consultant; calling LLL) and some general stuff about how to ensure a baby and his mum get bf going well (frequent feeding day and night, no scheduling, acceptance of unpredictable newborn needs, skin to skin contact), and you're still saying no one is telling you anything helpful or different from what you have already been told.

And we still don't know whether your wife wants to continue bf or not!

ADaddy · 24/06/2011 14:06

Thank you tiktok for your last post. It was interesting and I apologise if my post about a starvation and breast production was flippant. I also didn't mean to come across as sneering.

My original post suggest that if all those things that go along with adjusting to your capability to supply do not work with you in the bigger picture then perhaps it is just not for you.

We trust our health professionals, our last discussion did include lactation enhancing medication.

I suppose my concern is that there is such a strong bias to promote breastfeeding, it can leave the mother feeling a range of very negative emotions when it just doesn't work for her. This is so unnecessary.

OP posts:
TheCountessOlenska · 24/06/2011 14:07

TheRealMBJ - me too Hmm

Seems a very odd reaction to having a three week old baby and a wife struggling with breastfeeding to come onto Mumsnet and try and get support for your view point that breastfeeding is basically more trouble that it's worth.

MollysChamber · 24/06/2011 14:07

ADaddy what you have to remember is that you are three weeks in with your (presumably) first child.

At this stage with mine I was at the lowest point of my entire life. Exhausted beyond the point that I ever imagined possible, with a colicky baby that screamed from 8pm til 4 or 5 am every single night, aching boobs from constant feeding, excruciating pain with let-down, convinced that I had made the biggest mistake of my life and was not fit to look after this baby because I didn't seem to be able to comfort her at all. In utter despair basically.

And this was with help and support from both DH and extended family.

Fast forward a month and, while still being anxious first time mum, the feeding had sorted itself out, the colic had passed. I breastfed for 12 months and it was lovely. Which is why I always try to encourage people to carry on through those tough first few weeks because it becomes such a pleasure after that (for the majority anyway).

What I'm trying to say is that we've all been there. It's just life as a first time parent of a newborn. It can be really really hard. Nothing prepares you for it.

Where you go from here is really up to your wife. A day at a time would be my advice.

sungirltan · 24/06/2011 14:07

for my sins - if you are in plymouth come to one of our latch on groups - your dw i mean - can't promise to 100% solve bf issues but ican offer lots of social support, the ocmfort of knowing other mums have a hard time with a bf and also a chance to meet mums further on in their bf journey who can share wisdom too. and if that sounds like hell to you then more often than not we just coo at the babies and talk about whats on the telly :)

ADaddy · 24/06/2011 14:08

"And we still don't know whether your wife wants to continue bf or not!"

I am not sure she knows that either, I will support her either way. That is why we try to examine all the aspects of breastfeeding to help us move forwards.

OP posts: