Is Breast Best?

[ADaddy]

First of all I want to say that my heart goes out to all the women out there that are struggling trying to breastfeed their child and feeling the pressure to continue.

My wife gave birth nearly 3 weeks ago and since then has had a really rough time with breastfeeding. I just wanted to share some words with women in a similar situation. I'll put them in points to be more concise.

1. There is so much more to being a mother than just being a milk supply. Don't ever forget this!

1. This is about feeding your baby. It is too bad that they don't have "Feeding councillors" rather than just "Breastfeeding councillors".

1. Your baby's nutrition and hydration is vital. Don't feel guilty for making sure your baby has both of these.

1. The well-being of the mother is also vital. You need to be there for your baby, does your experience with breastfeeding enhance your well-being or make you feel like the contents of your babies nappies?

1. Unless there is imminent danger, Healthcare professionals will put breastfeeding above things such as sleep, washing, bonding, jaundice. It pains them to say the word "formula" so don't expect them too.

1. Healthcare professionals are mainly interested in the colour of poo, if wee is coming out and if the baby is at least gaining some weight. In that case all is well, forget the rest. This is NOT a holistic approach and one of my main bug-bears with breastfeeding promotion. There is a much bigger, far more complicated picture to consider to determine if breastfeeding really is working for you.

1. If you have a latch problem then they like that, they can help solve that. It's different when it is a supply problem, that is not always solvable and they tend to be in denial about it (mainly because it is far more difficult to solve).

1. Demand feeding:

a. Is lack or sleep good for mother or milk supply or to that end baby?
b. Is not being able to find time to eat good for anyone?
c. Is no time to wash good?
d. Does baby sleep a lot and forget to demand only to wake up ravenous and too fractious to feed?  Can't be possible, this does not fit in the ideal world of demand feeding :)
e. No routine, no structure, no way for an adult human to live?
f. Are you told, don't worry, keep going your milk supply will come through soon?
g. Feels like it is driving you insane?  Maybe it is!

1. Is the difficulty of breastfeeding affecting your bond with your baby? It is hard enough, healing, hormones, baby blues and worse, don't be pressurised into sacrificing this important step under some misguided notion that your baby will suffer by not being breastfed. He/She is likely to suffer more if you are not able to nuture this all important bond.

Of course, these questions and statements come from our personal experiences, although from what I have read on the internet, we are not alone.

If you read through my points and breastfeeding is still the right approach for you, great! If not, then do the best thing for you and the baby (yes, that is YOU too) and consider alternative approaches.

And before you ask, the only vested interest I have is in the health of my wife and baby and doing what is best for them.

Comments welcome.

Is it just me or would it be more constructive of the OP to now be spending time with his wife, preparing meals for her and doing some housework rather than spending his time pursuing this debate if everyone in his house is so sleep deprived/struggling with a lack of domestic order?

You sound like you had a really hard time BFing. I hop you do what ever is right for your family.

I found it really hard/painful for the first three weeks with number one child but after that it was easy/enjoyable/bonding.

Thanks tiktok I was under the impression that the WHO charts were different from ours. Good to have that clarified.

I think this post highlights just how much misinformation there is about breastfeeding out there. Before you give birth you read that feeding a newborn may take ages, and that some women find it a bit uncomfortable but the reality is SO different, IMO SO much harder!

When I cluster fed DS1 for 7 hours a night I presumed I had supply problems (never heard about cluster feeding). The midwife appeared to be v surprised by this pattern and I lost all confidence in my ability to feed my baby. I now know he was suckling for comfort and build up my supply.

Breastfeeding in my experience was also bloody painful (with a good latch), yet I read that if it is painful you're doing it wrong, again the mother feels like a failure.

DS3 is EBF at 18 weeks, having given DS1 & 2 formula from 2 weeks. This time I expected the cluster feeds, I expected the pain and I just went with it. Things got better gradually and I am thrilled, but it has not been easy!

I ate very little in the first few weeks of DS3s life (I remember eating just a couple of yogurts a day on some days) because I was anxious about the feeding, and when I'm anxious about anything I can't eat. Although this is not healthy in the long term it did not effect my supply, your wife does the pressure of eating 5 pieces of fresh fruit ang veg a day on top of everything else.

I bought 2in1 shampoo and conditioner and had 2 minute showers often at 5am with DS3. You just have to throw all expectations away and grab any moments for eating, sleeping, washing that you can.

In essence I guess what I'm saying is the OPs experience is not at all unusual, in fact it is pretty normal, but that doesn't mean it isn't bloody tough!

obviously that should read:
"your wife does not need the pressure of eating 5 pieces of fresh fruit ang veg a day on top of everything else."

celia you raise some really important points, and of course it has been said earlier in the thread that a lot of the problems that the OP and his wife are experiencing are newborn problems, not just BFing problems - but knowing what to expect from a) a newborn and b) BFing means you can work out what's right and normal and what's not.

I'm sure you'll have experienced that once you got through those first few weeks with your third child, that things got much easier and overall BFin became easy? Most people do, and at that point fiind that BFing is so much more than just a way of feeding your baby, and becomes the most amazing parenting tool to calm, soothe, get your baby to sleep, help with teething and vaccinations, make travelling easier, and so on. Meaning, if you're prepared for the awful, horrific first few weeks and get through them, it really does become much easier!

organiccarrotcake - yes, you're right BFing is now easy! I am a convert and I love it. Getting to this stage was hard, but so, so worth it.

tiktok - good to have more info on the cahrts but our red book charts and the who charts are slightly different though not by much. i was under the impression that the uk charts are still based on mixed fed babies though? happy to be corrected/link please as this is an issue locally.

also just a random question - according to the charts do eff show up as being too heavy? do they rise above thier birth centile quite fast? i'm just curious

It amazes me that people think it's supposed to be easy having a newborn baby. As has been said, all this behaviour is normal. I'm a single Mum and have been since the very beginning, which made it amazingly difficult to eat/sleep/wash/clean and still does 9 months on. I spent a good 6 hours in the evenings constantly feeding my daughter. I ate cereal bars mostly. Sometimes ready meals but they took too long to cook most of the time! I showered with my daughter in her bouncer in the room with me. I never cleaned or tidied. This is just normal life with a baby. It was probably more extreme for me because I didn't have much help. My Mum helped sometimes but my sister had a baby 7 days after me and struggled too. I had thrush on and off from 8 days to 5 months. I wish I'd known how to treat it at the time because it was excrutiating at times. I have never given my daughter any formula, but then I expected all this (except the thrush) so I stayed calm through most of it. My sister quickly ended up formula feeding and, if anything, found life more diffciult. There is a lot of work involved in bottle cleaning, sterilising and making.
Anyway, I think you could help the continuation of breast feeding by being supportive, hold the baby as much as possible, clean and tidy the house, prepare easy food for your wife. Sandwiches cut into four and put in the fridge covered in cling film would be perfect for daytimes. Do what you can to keep our wife calm. Although I think it is the best for a baby to be breastfed, all this still applies with formula feeding as well as making sure there are plenty of clean bottles and boiled water at the ready.

aswellasyou - brillant post and very true. i think bf/nbs in general require a lot of pragmatism and remembering that ti wont always be like this - and its not :)

Yes, very good post aswellasyou.

Thanks!

sungirltan, the growth data in the charts is the same. The UK adapted the WHO growth charts not by changing the data, but by starting at age 2 weeks (there is a notional line tracking birth to 2 weeks, I think) and by incorporating pre-term (UK) data. The UK reverts to UK charts age four.

Data was collected from the very wide-ranging WHO study which tracked bf babies in several developed and developing settings all over the world.

You can read about the differences here www.rcpch.ac.uk/growthcharts and there is a link to another document which explains what the differences are. Essentially the charts really are the same, so the charts we use now are indeed based on bf babies - not mixed fed babies. They never were based on mixed fed babies. UK90 (old chart) had data from babies who will have been mixed fed, bf, ff, and it was not differentiated.

Don't be embarrassed :).

Also, I've also been a LP since pg with my Ds and he's nearly 13. It gets easier for a while at least, but my own Ds is very hormonal...which is almost worse than toddlerdom! you are doing really well by the sound of it and good on you :) I suffered ductal thrush 12 times, mastitis several etc, but like you didn't give up. I got good advice from LLL and sorted it out for myself each time. I'm still bfing Dd at 4.6years (and yes, still LP to the two of them now). Women IMO, are made of very strong fabric.

Thanks Solo. You are doing seriously well though. I actually never took breastfeeding advice from anyone except reading on here. I did get really good advice while pregnant about the difficulties you can/will encounter while breastfeeding, so it was easy to be confident in my body's ability to feed my daughter.
Sometimes I think it could have been more difficult in some ways if I did have a partner. It often seems to be the father's idea to formula feed while the mother's struggling. I know they're just trying to help and are upset at seeing their partner and/or child in distress, but it isn't always what the mother wants long term. I've also co-slept since my daughter was born which may have been more difficult if there had been someone else in the bed with me. I think it's been easier for me than for most single parents, with my sister having a baby at the same time. And it's lovely seeing my daughter and niece growing up together and fighting playing.

aswell - i have been thinking this too - re whether its more difficult with the dad. dh is always saying 'don't try and solve a woman's problems, just listen to them' which is the best advice dh has never stuck to ha ha. i think if i had complained a lot to dh in the early weeks (and im not saying complaining is wrong) i'm pretty sure he'd have come out with something like 'well this is outrageous! something must be done!' and approached bf as something which could be manipulated. he did come out with some clangers back then but luckily for me he comes from a family of bf'ers who will give it to you straight that bf is hard work and is just something to be weathered. dh really tried his best and he is a great dad but by god i found it all so much easier when he went back to work! i still do. moslty because i could just weather things and not have to consider anyone else but also because i had to toughen up a bit and get on with it. i'm a strong parent these days i think because i'm on my own a lot (dh away for 9 weeks at a time)

My Dd's father never lived with me, but that didn't stop him wanting me to 'put her on the bottle at six months solo' Good job he wasn't in charge then...especially as he tucked me up in bed with Norovirus as he buggered off to holiday in Cuba when Dd was 10 months old. Continued bfing her through that too...actually thought my supply had gone during that as I couldn't even drink water...persevered and back it came :)
IMO, women need to be in charge of their bodies. Then again, I'm still single despite my name!

Is this Adaddy's first baby do we know?

Hi all

I thought I would comment on this thread, since after all, I did start it.

Some of the comments have been very interesting and I am pleased that people are sharing their experiences. Some comments have been useful, some less so, particularly those that make assumptions regarding the relationship I have with my wife, what I should do with my time and my eligibility to post in the first place.

With respect to statistical consideration, apologies if this tries to uncomfortably formalise what I assume for many mothers and healthcare professionals, seems intuitive. To the defence of this approach, we are where we are today (in so many disciplines) by applying such statistical consideration. Would you give your baby a drug which someone says works for most babies if it had not been rigorously tested in clinical trials?

I am also pleased that Mumsnet has professionals and experienced subscribers that monitor these threads to offer help to people.

This thread, however, was not about getting help, it was to promote discussion and awareness. Awareness, from my wife?s own experiences, that even after receiving help, some mothers have every right to cease breastfeeding and should do so without guilt. They are not alone in their difficulties and are doing their best for the baby, themselves and the family in the long run.

I would encourage every mother or professional out there that strongly promotes breastfeeding or has successfully breastfed their child, to consider the mother who may be in the position where the difficulties of breastfeeding their child outweigh the benefits.

I hope though, ADaddy, that the reason you only post during working hours, is that you are too busy supporting your wife and baby to be able to when at home.

Your last post makes very little sense, given the the the supportive and understanding post you have received throughout this thread. At no point did anyone tell you what to do and to not support the decision your wife makes regarding feeding your child. The style of this last (and some of your other posts) makes me doubt the veracity of your 'situation'

ADaddy,

Though I am sure your post is considered and your motivations good, I can see why a lot of people are miffed at what comes across as a didactic tone based upon 3-4 weeks second hand experience of breast feeding.

Firstly, your points 3 and 6 are contradictory. The professionals' interest in "wee" and "pooh" is entirely consistent with their concerns about hydration and nutrition.

Secondly, you do not seem to have engaged with those who have politely put forward an alternative hypothesis. For instance, I told you why we found breast feeding exceptionally good over two children despite a really tough first few months and I gave examples of situations in which it was really beneficial to our children. Have you showed these to your wife and discussed them? If so, I am curious to know your take on them...not just "thanks for sharing your experience".

I am always keen to share perspectives and statistics, but this has to be a dialogue.

ADaddy, glad you feel helped by this thread. Your comment about giving a baby a drug that has not been tested is interesting - formula milk has not been rigorously tested in clinical trials! Innovations in formula - added ingredients for instance - are tested for safety. But the principle of substituting mothers' milk with formula has never been given a clinical trial (see onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1523-536X.1987.tb01445.x/abstract this paper for a polemic on this topic). This would not be possible, ever, as you cannot randomise families into following breastfeeding or formula feeding.

There are some aspects of physiology you can safely assume are as they should be, because they have evolved over millennia to be right for the species. So you can safely assume that if you want a blood transfusion, for instance, you'd be best off getting human blood, rather than any other animal.

I don't know why you are still reiterating this thing about mothers having a right not to breastfeed when bf becomes difficult and distressing and to judge for themselves when that moment has come - no one, as far as I can see, has disagreed with you there. Quite the opposite. Perhaps you were summing up rather than reiterating? :)

As someone who spends a lot of time supporting women to breastfeed, I think I can say that most people involved in bf support are well aware that women have this right, and deserve just as much support to formula feed safely and enjoyably.

By the way, if I had one piece of advice for new parents, it would be, after the midwife leaves, avoid weigh ins completely unless you think your baby looks way too thin or lacks energy. I have seen parents of perfectly well babies use vast amounts of nervous energy in pointlessly monitoring the weight of perfectly healthy babies. If your baby is energetic and you cannot see its ribs, spine or clavicle poking out, then just leave weighing alone.

And, if you feel there is a problem see a clued up doctor or, ideally, a paediatrician. The reality is that if your baby is not putting on weight you firstly need to put the weight in perspective versus other measurements (length and head circumference) and then you need to eliminate meaningful health issues (most commonly reflux but also things like CF).

Disagree strongly, larry. If you wait to weigh until the baby looks as thin as you describe you are risking serious malnourishment.

I do agree that continually and frequently weighing healthy babies gives no meaningful info at all, which is why current good practice is reckoned to be no more than monthly weighings once the baby is seen to be thriving and has reached birthweight and this may happen some time after the midwife has stopped seeing the baby.

But there is nothing wrong with weighing in the early days - the scales are a useful tool and with other info, they can inform an assessment of early feeding, and spot when feeding is not going well.....way, way before the moment when the baby is obviously skinny.

Ok Tiktok,

At what stage would you intervene? And how would you intervene based on no other symptoms other than low weight?

We had our refluxy first baby weighed again and again and it was only when he dropped through the second centile that our doctor referred us to a paediatrician. At that point we were asked to wait 6 weeks on the NHS so ended up going privately. The paediatrician (a well known expert in neonates) seemed remarkably unconcerned about his weight (at this point 0.4th centile) and merely suggested some vitamin drops, substituting some bf with high calorie formula and monthly follow ups. He assured us (we were very concerned about every weigh in) that the brain and essential organs were favoured and a baby had to be even thinner than ours (and he was very very thin) for it to have any effect on long term development...this did indeed prove to be the case as he is just fine now.

Given the above, I stand by what I say. I think scales (alone) are an absolutely useless tool and most well educated parents that I know have never weighed healthy second and third babies, preferring to rely on their own knowledge and intuition.