Is formula feeding a feminist act?

[FeelLikeTweedleDee]

Excuse me as I'm high on Lemsip so my musings may seem unusual - I've been thinking about womens motivations for NOT breastfeeding.

Out of all the pregnant women I have spoken to who plan to formula feed from birth, the most common reason given is "I don't think it's fair that I should have to do all the feeds/shoulder all the responsibility for our baby's nutrition" which is an argument I can sympathise with. I understand the lactivists response: "there is so much more a man can do than feeding" but one must admit, feeding is pretty much the bulk of what a newborn needs. It also ties the mother to the baby in an exclusive manner which nappy changing, soothing, playing, etc does not.

I admit (online only because I'm a pussy) that women who chose not to breastfeed before even giving birth used to anger me. I couldn't understand why they would not put their baby's needs first. Why they wouldn't even give breastfeeding a shot? But perhaps sexual equality is sound reasoning?

What is your opinion on womens non-medical motivations for not breastfeeding?

If you're thinking "it's none of your business what feeding choices other mothers make", I disagree. Formula feeding costs the taxpayer a substantial sum every year re: NHS resources as well as its impact on the environment, etc. Thus womens non-medical reasons for not breastfeeding is an important issue.

I see BF as something which conbtributes to ones status as a "good mother"

That's because you are judgemental. Feminism is about choice, without the guilt crap you are laying on. I chose to bottle feed my children. Not because I would be able to share the work or any other reason. Because I didn't want to breast feed. My children had control over my body for long enough. I wanted it back. I just wasn't interested in breast feeding before, during or after pregnancy. And, I am a 'good mother'. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Btw, those studies don't stand up.

you soon get to realise that nobody actually cares and it will make fuck all difference in the end.

AMEN! :)

'Feminism is about choice'

Not always. Available choices are context-driven.

In a culture where BFers are victimised, prevented from earning a wage, have their lives made harder, expected to keep up their role 100% pre-baby or else considered not a good mother.

In a culture where one of the first imaginary role playing that toddlers are encouraged to do is feed a doll a bottle.

In a culture where marketing from formula companies has been so agressively directed at men and their supposed 'role' in parenting/child care.

In a culture where very few people actually see, in detail a baby being breastfed before they have their own child.

In a culture where co-sleeping has more potential risks and is therefore discouraged, making nights harder than they need to be.

In a culture where our motherhood is judged by how well our babies eat, sleep and poop to shedule.

Well, a 'choice' about how to feed isn't going to be unaffected by these things is it?

that is crap snowyweathher, but I think that comes into the part of the argument about making the world more friendly for both sexes, rather than equality being about letting women do things mens way.

Obviously here and now it does not help your friend who doesn't have a choice in the matter.

Co-incidentally I live in the US. Like motherinferior I went back to work at 4 months, but at 10 months BF is still going well. DH is a SAHD who does the majority chores. If I had FF then this would be the same. Interesting though how people draw comparisons to gender typing based on feeding method.

I meant to post my previous post ages ago, so is probably not too relevant anymore

It come back the question about whether Margaret Thatcher was a feminist, or whether she held men on such a high pedestal that in order to compete she had to turn into a man!

'Feminism is about choice'

Not always. Available choices are context-driven.

Hence the need for feminism as a vibrant force.

StartingAfresh - Thatcher was for self. Neither of your options are valid.

PenguinArmy - yes it really is total crap.

Starting afresh - yes yes yes. I think you have articulated my concerns about the so called choice.

I digress, but I find it funny that now employers are moaning about having to have facilities to store, pump breastmilk, when if you were truly able to breastfeed at work you would be able to have your baby at work at certain times, or be able to work flexibly around breastfeeding. I do not know anyone who has that option unless they work at home. I have never heard of anyone bfing their baby in an office for example.

So I think you are right - it is the cultural context which may be responsible for women thinking that bfing is restrictive. The control of your body is an interesting concept. I would have thought BFing helps with the spacing of children, which may give women more control over their fertility for example.

I find it interesting that posters see ffing as a way for women to be in control, when it can be so very difficult for women to bf in this culture with any status.

I'm not sure that any amount of cultural change could make early BF-ing other than restrictive, but startingafresh makes good points about the culture in which we're feeding our babies.

ON a point made earlier in the thread, I thought before DS was born that BF-ing was necessary for me to be a good mother. 5 months later, when it's too late, I realise that I've BF him successfully, but I'm a crap mother at least partly because of it: I'm so knackered, and I have to spend so much time feeding him, that I'm desperate to get away from him when he isn't hungry, and that makes me feel very sad for him. Fortunately he has a brilliant father, and I'll be back at work soon, so I'm hoping there won't be any long-term damage. But looking at the bigger picture, I personally would have been a better mother if I'd FF. I'm probably unusual, but I don't suppose I'm the only one.

I suppose I feel that feminism will have won through when workplaces, leisure facilities are family-orientated and have woman and her biological make up at the centre and this is seen as the norm, and she is not penalised for it.

When subsidied staff canteens/expenses/travel extend to creches and childcare.

When wages are based on outcomes not time spent in an office.

When workplaces aren't seen as 'unprofessional' because children and babies are on the premises.

When women and their babies are seen as a valuable part of our productive society.

That is IMO true feminism.

NOT apologising for and disguising the very features that make us women. Not handing over our children to others away from the workplace and pretending during our productive hours that they don't exist. Not dealing with the conflict of attendance in an office and attendance at child's medical appointment.

by toddlerwrangler:
"I didnt type that very well, I mean the dislike of formula complanies that is influenced by this book is ONE of the things that concerns me. I am aware of MN's stance on issues such as Nestle."

Many posters of this board have been very aware of the unethical marketing practices of formula companies trading in the UK long before the Politics of Breastfeeding was reissued in 2009.

the Nestle boycott and surrounding issues has been a different concern of many mumsnetters as Nestle does not market formula in the UK.

Don't lay this gripe of yours at the foot of the PoB. Women on here have held strong opinions on the unethical marketing of formula since before I joined this board(04).

Hear hear, foxytocin - I can't be the only one here who's been boycotting Nestle since university!

Thats one version of feminism. But as appealing as that scenario is, it leads to other problems. There a good number of jobs that with the best will in the world would be totally impractical to involve children in. One could argue that we would end up with a different kind of segregation that a good number of jobs would be unavailable to working mothers. Not forgetting that not all women would want to have their children with them, plenty mothers actually want to hand them over to someone else.

And thats why, as always, we are back to choice. There is no one size fits all feminism, just like everything else, we do not think en masse. Choice, real choice is the goal.

I thought feminism was about choice not man hating 'I dont want to do it all' shit

Sure, but wouldn't the world look very different had there been no men?

I read somewhere (Sorry no reference) that engineering and mechanics have been designed by mens brains, so a woman enteriing a role as an engineer or mechanic would have to learn how to think like a man.

However, if a woman had designed an aeroplane cockpit, it's layout and function would have evolved to suit better a female brain perhaps and therefore there would be more women pilots, or perhaps there would be very few men pilots.

I suppose what I mean buzz is that you are right there are jobs that children should not be anywhere near, but those jobs have been allowed to involve minus-children and that is where they are now.

Had children been there through their evolvement and development, perhaps they WOULD be more child-centred now, or perhaps they would just never have developed as viable jobs in the first place and other things would have developed in their place to fulfil whatever societal need had arisen!?

so feminism is about not wanting any men?

I'm sorry I shouldn't have come onto the thread

Course not Trinity.

It is about wanting to be considered as Valid as men, and not having to appologise for the things that make us women.

Further still, the things that make us women should not be generally considered a disadvantage, or getting in the way of productivity, or that the woman's stuff is only something you can do if you first manage the man's stuff and do it slightly better in order to buy yourself a buffer to allow you to do the women's stuff!

well some non-child friendly jobs are quite necessary! I'm thinking of things like paramedic, doctors/nurses, police, prison wardens, mining, pilot and so on? I don't see how any of those jobs could have evolved with children being in the mix.

You can't really assume that people/women in general want things to be more child-centred in that way. I know personally, I like having parts of my life that are all about adults.

I do understand what you mean re bf and work, and I agree that provision should be better. I don't think anyone should be prevented from bf in public or at work for the sake of other peoples squemishness, but for practical and productivity reasons it doesn't really work. If you don't think the workplace should be about productivity, you need to think more about communism than feminism!

It's not that I don't think the workplace shouldn't be about productivity (although I have a preference for outcomes over office-presence) but that bfing and childrearing is held in higher status and alongside general human rights.

I expect many workplaces could be more productive if they used slaves but we have 'evolved' out of that thank goodness, at the expense of business I grant you, but nobody now would deny it wasn't right to do so. We can evolve again.

Also, women may well not want their work place to be child-centered, but again this attitude cannot be removed from expectations and desires people have from the developed culture that we live in.

Don't forget there was a time when a large majority of women actually LIKED to be home-providers and took pride in that roll, and possible thought themselves too timid/weak/thick to do what men do. They saw it as an achievement to have married a man who can provide and that they hadn't done a day of paid work in their life.

The prevailing attitude is very different now.

the idea that women turn to formula so they can get busy with the chores is totally bizarre to me - does that actually happen?? surely not!

some of the insipid ways in which formula companies have behaved is quite despicable.

breastmilk is such a resource that women are not remunerated for which i think is a shame although its even more of a shame that we have to view it in economic terms for it to have some semblance of value

luckily my DH sees me as milk producer, personal chef, chief child care provider and royal pot washer lol so is more than happy on sharing his cash as these roles are not paid for by the government and nor should they be i suppose. it would just be nice if wider society saw what i was doing as ultra important

You don't really know that though. When was that and how many women really liked it, and how can you tell?
History in the main, literature too, is written by men, who will often have assumed that their little women relished the role they had assigned to them. And for most of womens history, being a home-maker has not been a role in the modern sense. Poor women have always worked, rich women had poor women to do the work for them. You point out that we have developed this culture of keeping the children at home and looked after and should think about making daily life more accessible to children to make life easier to women. Perhaps, but one could equally argue that you are then over-emphasising the role of women in child-rearing, and not helping equality with fathers.

I'm not really disagreeing with you (I'm not even saying the above is my opinion), more pointing out that there are many feminist opinions on this.

sure buzz kids should hang out at their father's workplaces just as much otherwise you get segretation.

Obviously not all women LIKED to stay at home. If they did, they'd all still BE at home. There was a movement started by some that gave ideas to others and eventually there was enough dissatisfaction for there to be a mass movement against it (to some extent helped massively by the wars though).

And I take your point about it being a certain class rather than all women.

I don't suppose I was really trying to make a factual arguement, just a principle one.

There is, however quite a bit of evidence that women who stayed at home enjoyed it and wanted to do it. It WAS a sign of success for them. There were plenty of books written for them to learn how to do it well and those who were motivated to work hard took satisfaction from that. They enoyed it perhaps because they were making the most they could of their reality, just like I enjoy being a carer to my disabled son rather than have a job. I am restricted in my choices so I may as well make the most of it and do it as best as I can and take pride in it.

I wish to god there would be a movement that incresed carers rights to work but we're all too damn knackered to fight for them.

I'm glad you enjoy what you do. I would like for the majority of us to like what we do, but ideally I would prefer that all of our choices were less restricted.
I'm a SAHM/student, but quite honestly I think I'd be better as a working mother. I don't have the choice right now though, and I think therein lies the problem for us all. Women have less choices, and for me thats what feminism is all about.

Absolutely

Yes I do like what I do, in that I can't see a viable alternative that I would be happy with so I have chosen the one that makes me most happy that is viable iyswim.

However, I wouldn't say I don't wish fairly regularly that there was another way.

Carers and caring is most certainly a feminist issue as it is an area where 'choice' is severely restricted.

I am not going to read the whole thread... only read the first couple of pages...

If women choose not to bf, that's fine and dandy. I do think bf is best for the baby, but its still a valid choice not to bf (and of course its sad for the mother if she wanted to bf but it didn't work out).

For me however, bf is a feminist act and I proudly do it in public etc! I worked in a v masculine environment and I firmly beleive that the best way to suceed in this man's world is NOT to try and act as a man would but to use the very different strengths we women have.

Bf my baby is something no man can do. Although men have tried to create something similar (formula), its not as good as breastmilk.

So I refuse to feel anything but proud to bf my daughter, a skill no man will ever have!!!

Incidentally, I find bf quite liberating and don't feel at all unfairly "tied". I take dd anywhere I go and I don't have to spend any money on feeding her. Bf doesn't seem to take up any extra time as I just do it wherever I am whatever I am doing!