Harrow School - a diluted global brand?

[Mrspepperpot1979]

Our DS has been offered a place at Harrow, which of course is wonderful – it’s a school with an extraordinary heritage. However, we're beginning to wonder whether Harrow, perhaps more than any other UK public school, has now evolved into something quite different from what made it so unique.

One concern is the sheer scale of Harrow’s international cohort - particularly the large number of pupils from China. While cultural diversity is something to be celebrated, it feels as though the balance may have shifted too far. When comparing Harrow with schools like Eton or Radley (both of which have made a point of avoiding overseas franchises), the contrast is quite stark.

Harrow has opened a significant number of international schools abroad over the last few years - notably in China – and continues to expand in this direction. While one can appreciate the commercial rationale, one can’t help but question what this says about the school’s strategic focus. Has the essence of what Harrow was – a quintessentially British boarding school experience – been changed for the worse or better as a result?

A number of the traditions certainly remain: the Harrow Songs, Bill, the distinctive dress, Long Ducker etc. But if the pupil body is so heavily international and the school’s global brand is now arguably its driving force, are families still getting the same experience that once made Harrow unique?

I’d really value hearing from others – whether you have current boys there, or considered it but chose differently. How does this international cohort impact the school culture, does it cause division? Through, for example, a lack of cultural reference points and different cultural sporting interests - i.e Rugby and cricket.

Do others share these concerns, or do you see this evolution as a positive step for a 21st-century institution?

I’m not quite sure why you keep inserting yourself into the discussion, given that you don’t appear to have any involvement in the process being discussed. Nothing here is being implied, everything is already written,
in plain English, and many parents considering the school recognise the same points.

Mrs Pepperpot. I don’t understand why you keep on your soapbox about Harrow School when your ds isn’t even going there!

I would agree with @PoppyBread. The bombing of Harrow by certain posters in this thread is relentless. The pattern of their posts is the same, the first half is fluff about Harrow school or a Harrow house having once upon a time been great at this or that and then the second half is a bomb chucking “so it’s just such a shame that it let itself down by letting in so many foreigners”, all delivered with a tone of imperial and unquestionable authority. It’s relentless. No facts, no figures, just conjecture based on hearsay and husbands that attended many years ago, allegedly.

My view remains the same and I have visited that school and Eton as well as Winchester many times. It is the same view as echoed by those on this forum that are Harrow parents or were recent Harrow parents.

Quite frankly, I see no obvious difference in the ethnic make up of Harrow, Eton, or Winchester. I would encourage any parent that is seriously considering those top three boys schools to visit and judge with their own eyes. The relentless negativity in this particular thread about one of those three schools does not match what I have seen with my own eyes.

Also, for those still not through the interview process, don’t fret. Once your boy has his offer then you will be invited to the school to meet with the other boys that have offers (and their parents). So, for those worried about this thread I say don’t worry and once your boy is through you can see for yourself before having to make any final acceptances.

For those that are considering the three schools, I think the quality of education will be very much of a similarly high standard. I understand that differences between them are to a great extent splitting hairs. Once upon a time the academic differences between the three were notable but times have changed and now they are all in the same ball park. I think in terms of non-academic culture the old joke about an old boy from each in the bar and the fetching of the chair still rings true and is a fairly decent representation of the culture at those three schools. In any event, boys departing any of the three schools should be equipped with a sense of gravitas and pride that they attended the very best.

As for the general increase in foreigners point (which several posters have made in reference to the entire boarding establishment, rather than just Harrow), yes I am sure it is the case that most or all British boarding schools have let in more foreigners than was the case from a husband’s generation ago. But I do not see any difference between the three top boys schools and I still think it is in the region of 20%-30% foreigners at each.

I also understand that the proportion of old boys sending their children to the three schools is roughly the same as it always has been. Would the relentless negativity in this thread persist if the title were discussing the Aga Khan (ex-Eton) or Nehru (ex-Harrow) sending their brood?

Now, in terms of foreigners the situation is potentially different at some other places. Radley in particular is more ‘White, British’; Radley is also less academic (and more sporty) than the aforementioned three. Tonbridge is also in the mix as a good single sex school - it is more academic (and less sporty) than the top three but we only visited briefly as it is weekly boarding (and so I do not have much of an opinion of it). I don’t know enough to reliably comment about Co-Ed schools like Brafield, Charterhouse, Millfield or Marlborough.

Our criteria were top academic standards, ample extra curricular activities, single sex, and full boarding. That narrows it down to three and only three. Having visited each many times (and spoken with current parents) I genuinely think that that joke about the bar and the chair is the best representation of the difference between them, nothing to do with ethnicity or nationality.

Also, our boy attends a Home Counties prep, I attend most of the inter-prep matches, and reading the comments here about how the Home Counties prep schools are less diverse than these secondary schools not only cannot make any objective sense but also conflicts with what I have seen with my own eyes. The Home County preps are the feeders to Winchester, Harrow and Eton. Of course their make up matches with that of the top secondary schools.

In sum, if ethnicity or a domestic-focused “old boy network” is the top criteria then by all means apply elsewhere (and omit Eton, Harrow, Winchester). But if your criteria entertain any of those three schools then I think you should go for all three because the differences between them are really quite narrow. Personally I think the differences boil down to (1) more introvert (Winchester) v more extrovert (Eton & Harrow), (2) more individual focus (Eton) v more team focus (Harrow & Winchester), and (3) more sport focus (Harrow) v more books focus (Winchester) (with Eton in between); and nothing at all to do with nationality or ethnicity.

Whatever the agenda is of those being so negative about Harrow, let’s just ease up a bit. It is a great school, as are its two nearest competitors. For those thinking about where to apply, I say ignore this thread and apply to all three, you can’t go wrong with any of them.

Good luck to all!!

Agreed

comments aren’t adding the discussion at all. Just seems like personal jibes.

@Crisphead did you notice much difference in relation to pastoral care between the three schools? My gut feeling is that things are less likely to slip under the radar at Harrow. The teachers seem to meet multiple times a day and there is plenty of opportunity to discuss if something seems to be not quite right with once of the boys. We hold offers are Harrow and Eton and are torn between them. My gut tells me Harrow is the right choice. My son and husband seem to be swaying towards Eton. I just worry that if anything does go wrong it might not be picked upon at Eton.

As mentioned above, Harrow holds taster days in the summer term of year 7 for those holding offers. I’m very much looking forward to meeting some of the other boys and parents when we visit this summer. Unfortunately, Eton doesn’t hold any such taster day / meet up until June of year 8.

Hi @Artemis126, my personal sense for that issue is that I think it will come down to the housemaster of each. I am unsure how many boys to a room in your house at Harrow and that may have some bearing on your views (I think but am unsure that some houses differ as to how many boys per room) but at Eton it will be one to a room. Our son much prefers the idea of one to a room (of course) but I also can see that there could be a social benefit at least for the first year or two of more than one to a room. In sum, I think the biggest issue after room size will be that it comes down to what you make of the housemaster and how involved you think he will be in terms of looking after your son.

@Crisphead it’s two to a room at Harrow for the first two years.

We are very lucky to have been allocated amazing HMs at both Eton and Harrow although at one of the schools the HM will only be there for my son’s first three years so what follows will be an unknown entity.

@MrsHLQ and @Mrspepperpot1979 - people do not need to send their own DC to the schools in question to have knowledge on both the process and where these schools are at.

Plenty of people have professional involvement in these schools, in all sorts of ways one could imagine, have family members and their DCs attending, are part of clubs in eg London where most people send their DC to public school, have colleagues with children at all these schools. The list is potentially endless.

Are you actually disputing that Radley the school has been trying to become more diverse, for quite some time?
The stereotype on Harrow some years back was that it was not up to scratch with Eton academically anymore. That was after Eton had altered its entrance process to become more rigorous. Eton & Harrow have always been friendly competitors, hence the boating song sung frequently etc. The current head at Harrow seems quite liked and delivering on what he set out to do. Really cannot see the problem or any of the demographic issues you seem concerned about. Many years ago Winchester College did not feature as much in the discussion of the top public schools. The fact that it was increasingly popular actually proved that Harrow also needed to make some changes.

Public school has and always will be more about the boy and their character and the institution. The institutions have to gradually adapt to modern times and preparing the modern boy for manhood and the world as it currently is. Hope that helps you both out.

Current head at Radley has worked hard to diversify

Current head at Harrow is very impressive IMO

so both Radley and Harrow have a great HM

Of course Eton and Harrow are competitors, traditionally so. But they seem like quite different schools to me and certainly the boys we know that go to them (as well as the current years applicants) are quite different

pecking order amongst our cohort:

Eton- 1st choice for many, especially the very bright kids. Not so bright kids are being absolutely flogged with extra study in evenings and holidays to get them to pass the entrance exams.

Radley - 1st choice for the bright to medium kids who are good at sport, particularly rugby. 2nd choice for those that want Eton.

Harrow- Not a 1st choice for anyone we know. 2nd choice for those that want Radley, so the sporty kids who are good took in the classroom. Not a second choice for those that want Eton.

of the boys schools:

Wincol and Tonbridge (and to a lesser extent Sherbourne) seem to have had more than their fair share of disgruntled parents on MN over the last few years

Eton, Radley and Harrow have hardly any that I have seen.

@MrsHLQ - a few years back when Eton got rid of the register at birth, became more academic, introduced the Cambridge list test, got a different style of Head, pushed bursaries more and for kids for whom it really would add value, started recruiting some more modern staff - there were a fair few grumbling alumni around too. I remember the rumours about changing the uniform until they realised it may put the Taylors out of business who had been loyal to the school for generations too.
Some alumni actually sent their DC to Radley too to make a point. When historically Radley was the back up if your boy was gentler or less academic. Now Eton is back en vogue and it appears the direction it took was absolutely right. I would like to think you can trust the leadership and governance at Harrow to know what they are doing too. And not some random posts on MN. Having said that at all schools bad things will happen but it seems Eton parents are just more loyal and don’t think to go online about it to a potential audience of many millions.
Think about how some Asian families may feel about these posts. And perhaps realise that some of them are from very well known highly influential families in Asian countries too.

One thing I would say is that all the Eton alumni we know are very keen that their DC attend Eton and many have or have just been accepted

However, none of the old Harrovians we know want to send their DC to Harrow. They sent/are sending them to Eton (or if they don’t get into Eton, Radley)

thats quite something

I too noticed this.
@Araminta1003 has eaten the dictionary when it comes to all these schools but there is always something a bit off.

I am a bit bored of this argument now. It is very obvious for all to see that Harrow has become a very international school, more so than the others talked about here. Some people may think it’s rude to say so or try to deny it, but it is the truth. It has also happened very quickly, and many others (Radley most likely) will go the same way, and there will be no return. Whether you want that or not - if you are an actual buyer, rather than an obsessive armchair commentator - is down to you. Me, I didn’t.

Eton- 1st choice for many, especially the very bright kids. Not so bright kids are being absolutely flogged with extra study in evenings and holidays to get them to pass the entrance exams.

I thought the point of the test and interview they do at 11 is that it can’t be prepared for and those that get offered and accept a place then do take common entrance but that’s more for setting.

“I am a bit bored of this argument now. It is very obvious for all to see that Harrow has become a very international school, more so than the others talked about here. Some people may think it’s rude to say so or try to deny it, but it is the truth. It has also happened very quickly, and many others (Radley most likely) will go the same way, and there will be no return. Whether you want that or not - if you are an actual buyer, rather than an obsessive armchair commentator - is down to you. Me, I didn’t.”

@ItalianWays I do not think you will be missed love, judging by your views. Good riddance.

I haven’t asked what prep they are doing

but I do know that there are a LOT of stressed out parents at DS prep who are absolutely OBSESSED with Eton and are forcing their sons to study excessively ahead of their upcoming tests.

They are in “no video games + must study for X hours per day every day” mode over the entire Easter holidays.

my take is that if you have to study that much you probably aren’t the candidate they want

Well it’s pointless studying too much as the Eton list tests seems to work on processing speed and thinking on the spot primarily. If they passed the ISEB well, have a good character that interviews well that housemasters can work with and some passion to get stuck into extracurricular (of any sort on offer), they will be fine. Of course if they have parents with bigoted views that have been passed on, they won’t get pass the interview.

Very well said @Crisphead - excellent summary all round.

I would add that the old boys network should and would include children from highly influential families from the likes of large countries with a lot of talent like India and China etc now.

@Araminta1003 You don’t add up. But luckily most people have the sense not to listen to you.

I really do not know what you are talking about @ItalianWays

The thing I actually object to the most is the concept that you can look at a photo of school children and decide their nationality. “White” British is a minority in London now you know. Did you look at photos of eg Westminster School? Most of the kids attending that school are born and bred in London and have British nationality. They do not have many boarding facilities and even then, it is weekly only.
A lot of hard working and successful families from all over the world have come to Britain, settled here long term, worked here and had children here and are now sending their children to all sorts of independent schools. Those kids are just as British as anyone else, in my opinion.
Skin colour or look has nothing to do with British or not British in my opinion. And that is what I am objecting to fundamentally.

Or that you could look at a photo or round a school and say definitely and say whether someone is White British or White British/French mix etc. or their parents were born in Poland, I find extremely bizarre.

Also, a lot of bursaries do go to British Asian and British Black children as they are high achieving as a cohort and a lot of independent schools may feel there is a lot of added value there as they may still face discrimination.

I've been reading this thread with interest, as I have kids in the private sector though not at Harrow or Eton. I agree with @Araminta1003 that looking at photos of students and making assumptions about whether they're 'foreign' is really quite naive. Depending on area, there are loads of non-white British kids in UK private schools, both day and boarding. You can't possibly make an assumption from looking at a photo about the number of non-resident international pupils in a school.

Also, I find the comments about lack of later networking opportunities at a school with 'too many' international students quite interesting. Increasingly, the friends of my older DC and other friends' kids are wanting to either study abroad for university or work abroad after uni. Having a network of non-British international school friends is incredibly helpful if you want to go off to the Ivy League or spend a few years working in Hong Kong or whatever. I'm amazed that anyone these days would think that a British friend/contact is necessarily more 'valuable' in that regard than a friend who's the child of the wealthy international elite.

I’ve read that the Chinese government keeps tabs on Chinese students at UK universities and criticism of the CCP isn’t permitted.
I wonder if the Chinese government also does this to students at UK private schools.
Also, if the Cultural Revolution is part of the UK history syllabus, would the Chinese students be allowed, or even prepared, to criticise it.

Has it occurred to you @linepainter that perhaps it’s not about international job networking for most people? What they want are friends to play football with at the weekends, to go out to the pub with in London after work, or to invite them to parties where they might meet potential girlfriends/boyfriends/spouses. I can say with first hand experience that international students who disappear back to their home countries or to the US after leaving school are not going to be these people.

@Araminta1003 I will explain as simply as I can for you. I read what you say and try to make sense of it, but it just doesn’t make sense, it is often factually wrong and is also offensive.

1. This is not about a photograph. Those of us who actually have had recent engagement with the admissions process, rather than those commenting from their chairs with “zero knowledge”, know that.
2. Harrow, unlike some other schools mentioned, has built a very strong brand in east Asia with the Harrow satellite schools and it’s not a surprise that it has become hugely popular with Thai, Chinese and Japanese families.
3. Unlike Westminster which is mainly a day school in London, Harrow is full boarding and has historically drawn pupils from around the UK, and the population of the UK is still of over 82% white ethnicity. So a false comparison to make.
4. Bursaries are not given on grounds of ethnicity, either at Harrow or anywhere else. Bursaries are awarded based on financial need.
5. There is no such thing as a single “cohort of British Asian and Black British children” about which sweeping generalisations (like yours) can be made.
6. If your argument that everyone at Harrow of a minority ethnicity is British were true, how would you explain why the numbers of pupils of minority ethnicity have changed so much very recently?

@Araminta1003 , nothing you’ve posted here “helps anyone out”. It’s simply a long stream of assertions from someone who clearly has no direct experience of Harrow or the admissions process being discussed.
A handful of vague references to “professional involvement”, “clubs in London”, or “colleagues with children there” is not the same thing as actually being part of the process, extensive research, or having friends who have moved children from Harrow precisely for this reason.
Those who are genuinely going through it, with connections to the school and regularly speaking to families with boys currently at the school, are very aware of the changes that have taken place at Harrow in recent years. Pretending those changes don’t exist doesn’t make them disappear.
If you have no real experience or involvement in the process being discussed, lecturing those who do is unlikely to be particularly enlightening.