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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

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FTMF30 · 15/03/2021 21:00

@Heiferr

A couple of posters have asked about what can be done moving forward, I'm interested to know what thoughts are on this from both BW and WW. Is it possible to repair what is a clearly a very real rift?
I think a good start would be learning when to respectfully be quite when it's patently obvious that a comment/opinion is not only unhelpful, but antagonistic and destructive.

I'm specifically talking about posters on this thread denying claims of hostility to black women on the feminism board.

Beyond that, it speaks volumes to someone's character when a person expresses how they feel and why they feel that way and how another person responds. There have been non black women on here who have responded basically saying "I hear you" and other's have responded, not just to disagree, but to be dismissive and patronising.

I support women's rights but feminism is a title I will not give myself, even if other black women choose to do so. To me, it's too problematic, and has actually almost become cultish in many ways. It's funny someone brought up Hibo Wardere. She has gotten so much abuse on a number of occasions, all in the name of feminism. You can fight for women's rights without having to give it a name/title.

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CallMeCleo · 15/03/2021 21:06

"If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. "

I'm an expert scholar on the suffragette movement and I do not have the foggiest idea what you are referring to.

Please elaborate, provide evidence or apologise for defaming our heroines.

BelleSausage · 15/03/2021 21:07

@FTMF30

Hibo refers to herself as a feminist and is very clear she campaigns for women and girls. As do many, many other back women.

It is sad you feel so pushed out of the movement. It’s not up to me to agree or disagree with anyone’s feelings. I was merely pointing out that writing off feminism writes off valuable work done by many women to help support women and girls from many different backgrounds.

Do you not feel that work is worth while? I’m talking about people like Jasvinder Sanghera and the really important work she does with Karma Nirvana. Isn’t that also based on feminism?

debbrianna · 15/03/2021 21:08

Being a feminist does not prevent prejudice or racism the same way being a black man does not stop them from misogynior or being sexist towards women.

If we reject the concept if feminism completely, which i think we can't, because when you fight for tge right of women to hold equal power that will always be fenism.

Intersectionslity is part of feminism wether we like it or not. It's a method we use to understand oppression within feminism. I am aware interesectionality is hated on the feminist board, but you can't have a debate with black women without using it. This is something white feminist need to accept.

I can understand that it has been hijacked, but it does not mean it's no longer valid.

debbrianna · 15/03/2021 21:12

Hobo Wardere would have been abused no matter what. Being called a feminist isn't the reason for her abuse but for the work she is doing.

FTMF30 · 15/03/2021 21:17

[quote BelleSausage]@FTMF30

Hibo refers to herself as a feminist and is very clear she campaigns for women and girls. As do many, many other back women.

It is sad you feel so pushed out of the movement. It’s not up to me to agree or disagree with anyone’s feelings. I was merely pointing out that writing off feminism writes off valuable work done by many women to help support women and girls from many different backgrounds.

Do you not feel that work is worth while? I’m talking about people like Jasvinder Sanghera and the really important work she does with Karma Nirvana. Isn’t that also based on feminism?[/quote]
@bellesausage She is free to call herself a feminist as I am free not to. I wholeheartedly support what she does. I just don't identify with the term feminist and the connotations it has for me personally.

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debbrianna · 15/03/2021 21:21

In almost all societies men are scared of the word feminist/feminism or something similar to it or Whatever name you decide to change it too. If it gains traction with a slight power shift, men will make sure it's destroyed. Capitalism can only survive when women are oppressed. Regardless of race, class or country.

BelleSausage · 15/03/2021 21:21

@debbrianna

She is getting abuse for performing acts to liberate women from male oppression. That is a feminist action. She would get abuse whatever. But she has been getting a lot of abuse recently online for not including trans women in her definition of women.

The issue around the use of the term intersectionality is that a lot of people who use it have never read bell hooks and don’t understand what it is. I think some in FWR (and a few thousand on Twitter) have only heard it in the contact of the trans debate.

Heiferr · 15/03/2021 21:21

@CallMeCleo

"If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. "

I'm an expert scholar on the suffragette movement and I do not have the foggiest idea what you are referring to.

Please elaborate, provide evidence or apologise for defaming our heroines.

Genuinely interested to know, what is your knowledge of the positioning of Black Women during the suffragette movement?
FTMF30 · 15/03/2021 21:22

@debbrianna

Hobo Wardere would have been abused no matter what. Being called a feminist isn't the reason for her abuse but for the work she is doing.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean but I didn't say she was abused for being called a feminist. I said she was abused in the name of feminism, as in the very people who should have supported her, criticised and bashed her in the name of feminism.
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DerangedRange · 15/03/2021 21:22

I think it boils down to the same problem as non-gendered racism. When aperson affected by racism expresses how they feel, people not affected by racism start dismissing and denying it. Unfortunately it’s the same with women who claim to be feminist but can’t imagine that a Black woman’s experience may be different from theirs. We have a long way to go.

I’ll still keep being a feminist and anti-racist as both are important to me, but if you feel like it’s not for you, I hear you Flowers

Benelovencd · 15/03/2021 21:22

Thanks HolyMoly that is a great video.

I also don't know what people hope to achieve by coming and telling Black women who experience misogynoir unique to them, that they are wrong, imagining it, don't understand what feminism is, or they don't know what they are talking about, or insinuate we don't care about BW fighting for women's rights and they are not "the right kind of Black".

Frankly it's condescending, and quite offensive. What do you hope to achieve by whitesplaining our own issues with intersecfionality to us and the lack of representation on issues that affect BW and are always on the periphery of the feminist agenda.

It's possible to dismiss Western feminism because it is frankly quite shite for us. One issue voting causes real harm to thousands of BW and WoC. alienating them from access to the workplace, childcare, state support, early years resources, community projects, secure housing etc and disenfranchising British children, it is a privilege to be that single-minded.

What has Western feminism done for us and our high mortality rates? Feminism is happy to accept advances in maternal and neonatal care on the backs of BW used as experiments but doesn't even point out that despite BW being used as the largest dataset and therefore the conditions affecting us should be well researched, ww are the priority and healthcare centres them. But that's okay as long as ww are well cared for.

The cognitive dissonance must be real for you to come on BMN and lecture to BW their experiences are wrong and they haven't considered it from your obviously much superior and all knowing opinion. Learn to pass things without commenting (its not hard - start your own thread), sometimes you really don't know it all, and your opinion is unnecessary

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 21:26

It's funny someone brought up Hibo Wardere. She has gotten so much abuse on a number of occasions, all in the name of feminism.

When? Where? Where are your examples? You can't just chuck out accusations and expect people to apologise or 'be quiet' - you have to back up your claims.

Fourbagsofchips · 15/03/2021 21:28

@CallMeCleo this is definitely something I have heard about the suffragettes. Some would say it was an entrenched attitude of the time. Not too hard to find info on it either, but maybe it's as aspect of suffragette history that's only been dug into in recent years:

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/07/us-suffragette-movement-black-women-19th-amendment

www.race.ed.ac.uk/they-all-must-fall-does-the-racism-of-white-suffragettes-mean-their-statues-must-also-come-down/

www.npr.org/2011/03/25/134849480/the-root-how-racism-tainted-womens-suffrage

There's also a link to a good piece I've read before in The Telegraph but it's behind a paywall - link in case you have access:

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11914757/Racism-and-the-suffragettes-the-uncomfortable-truth.html

debbrianna · 15/03/2021 21:31

I really want to get in the middle of this bicuase it giving me anxiety just watching it fester.

  • the suffragette movement being referred to is the American one. I know with Britain, its slightly different.

And no, they are not defaming your heroines. They are speaking the truth. When white women and freed black men decided to kumbaya together and leave out black women. It was true. The only problem is, when the law was fully past, black and idegiuos women were included. But the intention was to leave them out.

BelleSausage · 15/03/2021 21:32

Hi @Benelovencd

I assume that was aimed at me.

I’m leaving now. Again, all I wanted to do is point out the great feminist work done by black and Asian women in their communities. I apologise if it came across as lecturing. I admire these women greatly, have seen the transformative power of their work.

If that comes across as hectoring or racist then I apologise.

I won’t come onto this board again. It was disrespectful and wrong of me to try to comment on something I don’t understand.

Benelovencd · 15/03/2021 21:33

Walking away now. This thread has been hijacked just like the other 2. Why can't you let BW exist and have conversations amongst themselves? Why must you always centre yourselves and turn it into an inquisition where you expect BW to

  • explain to you
  • justify
  • provide evidence

Before you try and (often very poorly) break down each point.

BW are trying to have a conversation amongst themselves on BMN. Why can you not start your own thread complaining about how woefully misinformed those BW are (I can guess why- your intentions would be obvious), instead of invading this space and making it about your need

  • to be educated
  • satisfied with the points being raised
  • get your word in

When the conversation is not about you and does not involve you. It is just BW sharing their experiences and opinions with one another.

What is wrong with you?

DerangedRange · 15/03/2021 21:37

“When? Where? Where are your examples? You can't just chuck out accusations and expect people to apologise or 'be quiet' - you have to back up your claims.”

This was supposed to be a safe space to raise an issue and not an inquisition. Every thread gets derailed like this, FFS

ItsLoisSangersFault · 15/03/2021 21:37

The obsession with transpeople on the feminist boards here just demonstrates what a privileged position these posters are coming from.

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 21:38

When the conversation is not about you and does not involve you. It is just BW sharing their experiences and opinions with one another.

Because it does involve others when you're making terrible, divisive attacks on women then trying to shut down any argument. Why do you think that's ok?

Sbk28 · 15/03/2021 21:39

[quote FTMF30]@Ikeameatballs Because of the historical context and the sheer scale of how black people have been mistreated (genocide, slavery, etc). Whilst slavery was still very much alive (as if that in itself wasn't atrocious enough) you had white people mocking us and reinforcing awful stereotypes that dehumanized us. Whilst we were treated like absolute shit, everyone was laughing at us too. There is not that parallel with drag.

Also, a prime audience for drag seems to be straight women, although personally I find drag to be a joke I just don't find funny. Many people who work behind the scenes on the shows are also straight woman. Again, there is no parallel with blackface. In it's infancy, black people had no power at all. We weren't sharing a joke, we were being laughed at.

Women, historically have been treated awfully (and still are in some contexts) but my view is that it doesn't compare, as a whole, to how black people have suffered. So for me, blackface hurts a lot more. I don't feel drag was born out of a deep hatred for women. It's not funny or entertaining to me, but it's not really offensive either.

I don't think I've articulated the thoughts in my head very well but hopefully you get the gist.[/quote]
I think you articulated your thoughts brilliantly here. I will admit it is not something I have thought about before (which is a priveledge that I am afforded by being white). Your post explained perfectly why there is no value in comparing one to the other. As someone who is uncomfortable with drag, I appreciate now why it is completely different to blackface.

I hope it is OK to post; I wouldn't normally post in this section (although I do sometimes read to try to educate myself) but I see that you have been comfortable with other supportive white posters.

MolyHolyGuacamole · 15/03/2021 21:39

@ImpatiensI

When the conversation is not about you and does not involve you. It is just BW sharing their experiences and opinions with one another.

Because it does involve others when you're making terrible, divisive attacks on women then trying to shut down any argument. Why do you think that's ok?

Ah, now you're gaslighting. Typical MN 'feminist'. Please leave.
FTMF30 · 15/03/2021 21:39

@ImpatiensI

It's funny someone brought up Hibo Wardere. She has gotten so much abuse on a number of occasions, all in the name of feminism.

When? Where? Where are your examples? You can't just chuck out accusations and expect people to apologise or 'be quiet' - you have to back up your claims.

@ImpatiensI I posted specifically on the BNM thread asking a question - if other black women share my feelings of feeling disconnected from feminism.

I owe you nothing.

If you were really interested to find answers you could look yourself. You have access to MN so you must have access to Google.

I don't believe I've asked anyone for an apology, and as far as you believing or not believing my "accusations", I don't care.

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debbrianna · 15/03/2021 21:40

[quote BelleSausage]@debbrianna

She is getting abuse for performing acts to liberate women from male oppression. That is a feminist action. She would get abuse whatever. But she has been getting a lot of abuse recently online for not including trans women in her definition of women.

The issue around the use of the term intersectionality is that a lot of people who use it have never read bell hooks and don’t understand what it is. I think some in FWR (and a few thousand on Twitter) have only heard it in the contact of the trans debate.[/quote]

If it's in the context of trans debate, why does the meaning shift or the use of the method denied for its intended use? By doing so, You are taking away one of the very useful methods for black women to express their problem without lumping it with everyone else's. This is another form of power play by white women to silence black women knowingly or unknownly.

Craneshaw did accept the fact that her theory had gone beyond whst she had imagined. However, she accepts she does not own the word.

When she did her Ted talk and used it to talk about black women killed by American Police and how we always reacted differently, this meaning was still the same.
This whole thread is based on that.

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 21:40

@DerangedRange

“When? Where? Where are your examples? You can't just chuck out accusations and expect people to apologise or 'be quiet' - you have to back up your claims.”

This was supposed to be a safe space to raise an issue and not an inquisition. Every thread gets derailed like this, FFS

When you raise an issue do you usually expect everyone just to agree with you or stfu? This isn't just raising issues, it's throwing out accusations, making attacks - having an agenda actually. Why should that be allowed to go unchallenged?
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