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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
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7
EchoCardioGran · 19/03/2021 08:30

Hmmm That young man speaking in your last post is amazing. If I were his mother my heart would burst with pride to hear him speak like that. She has done a great job of raising such an aware and articulate man.

plumpuddisnice · 19/03/2021 09:18

[quote HmmmmmmInteresting]I don't watch the loathesome Good Morning Britain, but I came across this on my twitter feed. A young black man speaking up for BW:

twitter.com/Comanda_x/status/1372474619307917318?s=09[/quote]
His point has succinctly articulated what many on this thread have been trying to say

Agitsanaamchange · 19/03/2021 09:28

We have to understand first as black women that we are not seen as women.

plumpuddisnice · 19/03/2021 09:29

@MangoBiscuit I recommend I Am Not Your Baby Mother by Candice Braithewaite. A fantastically written piece about black womanhood and black motherhood. I cried at so many points as I related so much to what she had written.

EchoCardioGran · 19/03/2021 11:18

@Agitsanaamchange

We have to understand first as black women that we are not seen as women.
Yes, I've just had this reaffirmed elsewhere on MN. For quite a mild observation really.

I never learn. I should have known better.

I pray that BMN doesn't turn into a place where we use someone's spelling and grammar as a micro aggression to miss the point they are making.

Me spelling Birchill wrongly (with an " a" instead of an "i" ) is not remotely in the same league as white English women calling me a totally different name because they can't compute the one I have. (Now I think about it, Irish, the Scots and Welsh women seem to say it ok. ) That's what I was pulled up on.

Oh and Julie the racist has apologised, so she's welcome at a feminist dinner party, but definitely not the subject of her racism. KMT.

There are Western feminists who see us as not "educated" enough, that we don't tow the white thinking line, that we can't organise without their help, that white academic experts may know white women's history but show their ignorance about the Black woman's experience.
We have to show " receipts". ( From a pp "down with the hood" cos that's how ALL Black people speak).

Sad
C130 · 19/03/2021 14:27

@Agitsanaamchange

We have to understand first as black women that we are not seen as women.
This. It is a sad truth. Black women have been manhandled, even shot by the police and nothing much has been done about it, by the powers that be. I have got the book, The louder I will sing, which is about Cherry Groce, who was shot by the police in her home in Brixton. The book is written by her son.
HmmmmmmInteresting · 19/03/2021 19:14

Well you know by now OP that you're certainly not alone. Strangely my twitter feed has had a few conversations about this topic today, basically backing up what you and everyone here have been saying. Lots of black men speaking up for BW against 'feminists' promoting problematic material. Didn't realise racist white feminists was a well-known thing. Thought it was just me that had noticed.It's an odd feeling when your eyes get opened.

dontsaveusername · 19/03/2021 20:30

I agree with you, it seems irrelevant to black women's lives and perceptions, just as it seems blind to white working class women's realities. Feminism encompasses only white middle class professional women.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 19/03/2021 22:22

"When Feminism is White Supremecy in Heels". Harper's Bazaar
www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/amp22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/?__twitter_impression=true

I've only scanned this article so don't know if it's any good (mainly bc it's Friday and I've had wine), but two points jumped out at me:

When you try to exclude yourself from the conversation of race by saying things like “I don’t see color,” or “I married a black man and have brown kids,” that's just as irrational as a man saying there is no way he could be sexist or misogynistic because he has a daughter. On MN these types (and we see it on every Meghan or race thread) aren't trying to exclude themselves from the convo- they're usually being the most racist MOFOs on the thread and trying to pretend they're black/ mixed/ married to Femi from Nigeria as a dog whistle.

When you begin to feel defensive about the conversation of race, demanding explanations, it is like a man walking into a women’s space saying: “Make me feel more comfortable in this moment, even though the point of this space is sorting out how I make you feel uncomfortable everyday in multiple ways.”

Seems the tiresome arguments we have on MN are not original 🙄

HmmmmmmInteresting · 19/03/2021 22:25

This article seems to be about liberal feminists (what even is that?!) But the MN brand of feminism is apparently right wing (what even is that?!Grin)

Misbeehived · 20/03/2021 00:43

Well there are rather a lot of people on the feminist board lauding Lawrence Fox and claiming alt right isn’t a thing (only saw because it’s in active - Id never seek out the board). So yes I’d say there is fair amount of right wing feminism on mumsnet. On the other hand Get Out is satire of something so I’d say yes there is more than one way to purportedly be a feminist and a racist at the same time.

Sundance5 · 20/03/2021 00:47

White and feeling educated by your post, thank you x

Coolandclamy · 20/03/2021 00:58

I couldn’t agree more. Feminism in the UK is all about white women. I know many white women who are uncomfortable with this but unfortunately it is what it is.

Britain must confront its racism.

Quaagars · 20/03/2021 01:54

Britain must confront its racism.

Very true
I've noticed when say something in RL, people don't half get so defensive.
Kind of like the fact that being thought of as racist is worse than actually being it or saying stuff in the first place, if that makes sense?!
It can be casual racism as well, that's ingrained.
(Not wanting to give any examples for obvious reasons, don't want to upset anyone)
People are more aware of it now (I know I am) but in the 80s/90s growing up was the norm for phrases but at least now more people are becoming aware and know it's not acceptable.

Benelovencd · 20/03/2021 03:38

People are more aware of it now (I know I am) but in the 80s/90s growing up was the norm for phrases but at least now more people are becoming aware and know it's not acceptable.

Is this what people are hankering for when they say everything is too PC or "woke," (woke is compliment not an insult in my eyes). Like I always genuinely want to know and I'm always met with ums and ahs when I ask - "What is it you want to say so badly that you can't now?"

If you miss being able to insult people and dehumanise them in the name of "banter" - surely rhe only correct term for you is racist?

Coolandclamy · 20/03/2021 07:04

@Benelovencd very well said.

Being woke is not an insult. It’s what every decent human should be. The alternative is to hold on to ideas rooted in discrimination and abuse.

The head of Kew Gardens had a brilliant response to being called woke. He pointed out that it’s not being woke that is a problem, it is perpetuate lies and being dishonest about history that is the tragedy. Not being honest about the contributions of ethnic minorities and Britain’s racist past is the real problem.

FTMF30 · 20/03/2021 08:48

@HmmmmmmInteresting

"When Feminism is White Supremecy in Heels". Harper's Bazaar www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/amp22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/?__twitter_impression=true

I've only scanned this article so don't know if it's any good (mainly bc it's Friday and I've had wine), but two points jumped out at me:

When you try to exclude yourself from the conversation of race by saying things like “I don’t see color,” or “I married a black man and have brown kids,” that's just as irrational as a man saying there is no way he could be sexist or misogynistic because he has a daughter. On MN these types (and we see it on every Meghan or race thread) aren't trying to exclude themselves from the convo- they're usually being the most racist MOFOs on the thread and trying to pretend they're black/ mixed/ married to Femi from Nigeria as a dog whistle.

When you begin to feel defensive about the conversation of race, demanding explanations, it is like a man walking into a women’s space saying: “Make me feel more comfortable in this moment, even though the point of this space is sorting out how I make you feel uncomfortable everyday in multiple ways.”

Seems the tiresome arguments we have on MN are not original 🙄

This is so very accurate and, like you said @hmmmmmminteresting, so much of it played out on MN.

I see the term "gaslighting" used quite alot on MN and it's funny as it's quite fitting to describe what some people on here are attempting to do to anyone who takes a critical look at feminism.

OP posts:
FTMF30 · 20/03/2021 08:50

All of the links shared are great. They're conjuring up so many thoughts and feelings that I couldn't possibly put into a few brief paragraphs on here!

OP posts:
RedMarauder · 20/03/2021 09:08

@Quaagars and everyone else stop using the term "casual racism".

Just call it what it is racism

After all you don't get "casual homophobia" do you?

OutComeTheWolves · 20/03/2021 09:18

Thanks to the previous poster who linked to the HB article. I love Rachel Cargle she hits the nail on the head every time she writes in my opinion.

Bluebirdhumming · 20/03/2021 09:33

Honestly, I've always felt like a fraudster identifying as a feminist. It wasn't until my early twenties when I stumbled upon womanism that I could articulate the why and how.

Anyway, I agree and completely relate with the OP and others.

I've cringed over the years when I've been invited into spaces only to find I'm the only black woman, then asked to invite my friends. And they have plenty of conversations regarding "BAME" or "POC", conversations of allyship amongst themselves. We simply don't experience the same reality, nevermind our kids.

OutComeTheWolves · 20/03/2021 09:35

Also in my opinion nothing will ever change until people have a better understanding of their history.
We need to scrap British values from the curriculum. I cringe every time I hear it. As if other countries haven't yet realised the importance of democracy and diversity 🙄.
Then we need to re-write the history curriculum so people grow up getting an even and balanced view of Britain's past.
Our role in slavery.
Our treatment of the Irish.
Why the fuck we sent so many working class men off to die in WW1
Our role in the mistreatment of people in India and Kenya last century.
The Dresden bombing
Yeah Britain has done some alright stuff but we've also committed atrocities and I don't understand why people get offended when this is pointed out.

After the whole BLM/statues issue in the summer I had conversations with more lots of dh's family who thought it was ridiculous that people wanted to remove Churchill's statue - he couldn't be a racist; look at what he did for the Jews! I think too many people believe this false narrative that Britain joined WW2 to stop Hitler's anti -semitism. Too few people know that we also had terrible concentration camps in Kenya, that many historians believe the British invented the concentration camp in the boer war and that Churchill probably could easily have instructed the railroads into hitler's camps to be bombed but didn't because it suited him that German soldiers were deployed to the camps not the front lines.

This has turned in to a major rant so TL:DR nothing will change until people understand their own history better. It's not a personal attack to point out that a country acted like a twat in the past and you're probably still benefiting from it now.

Benelovencd · 20/03/2021 10:03

Our role in the mistreatment of people in India and Kenya last century.

And 60 other countries where similar atrocities where committed and the British government thinks it has absolved itself by destroying records of their own shirty behaviour, that it somehow doesn't exist and noone will ever know. People remember and it is recorded local history. The British government takes the cake when it comes to gaslighting Black and brown people

Quaagars · 20/03/2021 10:07

[quote RedMarauder]@Quaagars and everyone else stop using the term "casual racism".

Just call it what it is racism

After all you don't get "casual homophobia" do you?[/quote]
Very true, apologies

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