Reparations

[africanmixedkid]

Can we talk about this?
It's something that I feel needs to discussed and a collective campaign to force countries responsible for the slave trade to address. Black mumsnetters what do you think?

The UK has gained huge wealth off of the back of the slave trade. eastmidlandsbylines.co.uk/whose-ill-gotten-gains/

Reparations is something I hear many of the black community shout. But how do we go about getting this?

Just want to add that today is Rev Dr Martin Luther King Day in the US.
So let’s also take a moment to remember and honour his role in the US civil rights movement for American black people.

@Oopsyouvedoneitagain
Which leads on to a second question, what loss the current descendants of slaves have suffered? As a generalisation, those in Europe will be experiencing relative stability and affluence compared to their counterparts in Africa.

I know you’ve carefully worded this, but the main point of your generalisation seems to be implying that the descendents of slaves living outside Africa are the lucky ones because in your comparison of them to Africans in Africa today, you are saying that slave descendents have more stability and affluence than free African
descendents?

How dare you.

@africanmixedkid

Can I just ask those commenting if they're black mumsnetters? I get the feeling that some aren't from some of the responses I'm reading.

I’m not. I’m Asian (Chinese). OP, up to you if I stay or go.

@samanthawashington

I'm afraid you can't have a discussion which drags in the descendants of the vast majority of 'white' people who were not slave owners and whose ancestors were disenfranchised and living impoverished lives, expecting them to pay for this 'reparation', yet not allow them a right of reply.

Or perhaps you can?

Why not? Germany has paid reparations for WWI and WWII. They didn’t finish that until 2011. So can safely say that millions of Germans who were not even born then have contributed to the reparations. Even people who immigrated into Germany and merely lived there and paid taxes from 1945-2011 have also contributed. It’s not an obstacle.

Point a is what I've been trying to get at. The simple fact you're of African descent but a Caribbean national is proof of slave descendants. Balance of probabilities and all that.
Point b. I feel I've been gaslighted by a few posters regarding this. I knew there were birth records prior to abolishment. Literally discussed it with my partner recently, his family are Jamaican and grandma is in her 90s we figured we could get the details going back at least 2 generations before her which takes us to before emancipation.

Yes exactly. Emancipation was not that long ago. Anyone who emigrated from Africa after emancipation the immigration records would be there to prove they are not slave descendents.

Then pretty much everyone else who is black/mixed and can trace a generation or two back to a former slave colony/country can be presumed to be slave descendents on the balance of probability. The majority of people know at least as far back as their grandparents. If there’s any doubt, then a DNA test can be added proof. It shouldn’t be that hard to do.

The EU settlement scheme is much more complex than this would be.

@NotDavidTennant

It depends what you mean by birth records. Birth (and all BMD) registration didn't begin in Jamaica until 1878

A generation is classed as 25 years for the sake of genealogy, so 140 (90+50) years ago would be decades after abolition

You are massively overthinking this. It can reasonably assumed that the vast majority of people who have ancestors born in Jamaica during the colonial era will have slaves in their family tree somewhere. There is not some big population of people there who emigrated after the emancipation of the slaves and then didn't intermarry with the majority population.

Yes exactly my point it's reasonable thinking that most black Jamaican nationals are descendants of slaves. As a PP said the African Diaspora people in the Caribbean didn't get there by themselves. Jamaicans have British surnames, they didn't just decide to rescind their African name. There was no free will in this. The names have been inherited via the slave industry, via their ancestors slave owner.

Some posters are really trying to complicate this. Lots of stonewalling. It's really quite simple and Caribbean people of African descent know it. It's a given. And there is, anger, hurt and pain associated with this. And rightly so.

@2020inhindsight

Reparations will in no way assuage the murders, rapes and beatings that my forebears had to endure. It will not assuage the many who died after being thrown overboard floundering ships and left to drown and have no progeny that reparations could be paid to. Reparations are a " get out of jail free card" where you can say " yes we did bad things, but we've paid for them now with a financial settlement so stop going on about it". I am descended from slavery, but I haven't felt the level of pain and anguish my forebears had to endure, so should I get a financial stipend from it? It would feel like blood money to me and negate their pain and suffering. No amount of money could compensate. I would rather people are fully educated about slavery, the role of the UK in both the slave trade and the outlawing of slave trade. I want people to know that this country and many other countries made its wealth on the back of my forebears by pretending we were subhuman and beasts of burden so they could carry on this practice. Then we can start talking about the imbalances this has created and work to fix that.

I respect your opinion. The thing is that there are descendants of slaves who feel that reparation is required.

I think at @DeeCeeCherry suggestion of a scheme where individuals can apply makes so much sense here. It is the choice of the individual, and those who choose to opt out should be wholeheartedly respected for that decision.

I’m not. I’m Asian (Chinese). OP, up to you if I stay or go.

No need for that, your posts have been respectful, informative and insightful.

BRITISH PEOPLE (including black British people, what a flipping cheek) ONLY FINISHED PAYING THE DEBT FROM THE REPARATIONS PAID TO RAPIST CHILD ABDUCTING SEX TRAFFICKING MURDEROUS "SLAVE OWNERS" FOR THE LOSS OF THOSE ENSLAVED IN 2015.

I really wish people who are saying the enslavement of African black people has nothing to to do with British people today could try to be more educated on the topic.

The EU settlement scheme is much more complex than this would be.

This is true. Things are only impossible when we want them to be or have no vested interest in seeing them through. The relative ease the EUSS was set up and glitches seen through as they went along even now. It was far from perfect and yet no-one dismissed it even before it began or wrote it off as impossible.

Reparations is written off because it concerns black people primarily and we are not a priority. Anything is possible if you want to do it.

@samosamo

BRITISH PEOPLE (including black British people, what a flipping cheek) ONLY FINISHED PAYING THE DEBT FROM THE REPARATIONS PAID TO RAPIST CHILD ABDUCTING SEX TRAFFICKING MURDEROUS "SLAVE OWNERS" FOR THE LOSS OF THOSE ENSLAVED IN 2015.

I really wish people who are saying the enslavement of African black people has nothing to to do with British people today could try to be more educated on the topic.

Has been mentioned many times in the thread but is continuously ignored or justified. We know why

Reparations is written off because it concerns black people primarily and we are not a priority.

Yes. I’m a bit of an outsider, or third party, being both not black and not white but it is as plain as day to me that is why. It is far from impossible. The documents individuals would submit would be a few pages at most. Governments have ID numbers - national insurance in U.K., social security in US, National ID in France...etc. They can tick you off as you get paid.

The hardest part in all of it would be getting through the arguments about how much each person should get and for how long (as in does it stop for all born after a certain date? Or do we phase out by plussing up child benefit for black British born for next fifty years)

The second hardest would be taxing to generate the fund. MPs would all seek to protect their personal interests/investments. So that would be like herding cats. But it can be done. I think it can be.

Maybe if the U.K. isn’t first, another country will be. I think if one does it, the others will suddenly find it possible.

Don’t really see how money will help. What happened was totally wrong but no one alive today is responsible for it. Far better to put money towards modern day slavery around the world and people smugglers. Seems a bit grabby to be demanding reparations.

Curious to see everyone's view on the complicity of certain African countries and societies in the slave trade? Surely, there needs to be an honest discussion around this too? If those countries have profited from oil or mineral wealth, say (looking at you, Nigeria), is there not a reasonable case for reparations to come from them too? At the very least, the complicity should be fully acknowledged, as Benin has done. This would be as complex as trying to sort out who should be responsible for reparations in Western countries- in Africa, you would find descendants of people who had lost family to the slave trade as well as descendants from those who captured and sold them to the Europeans.

What happened was totally wrong but no one alive today is responsible for it.

Surely the point is that one section of society continues to benefit from the profits of historic behaviour - while another section continues - today, now - to suffer the ill effects.

The purpose of reparation is not to punish perpetrators ("But, look, none of them our alive now!) but to repair the damage done to those who inherit a legacy of ill treatment.

It is extraordinary that non-white people should still have to be explaining how their entire lives are impacted every single day by this inheritance.

('are alive'. Don't know where 'our' came from.)

The purpose of reparation is not to punish perpetrators ("But, look, none of them our alive now!) but to repair the damage done to those who inherit a legacy of ill treatment.

Genuine question. How much would it take to repair that damage and to forge a different outcome for the descendants both those here already and the ones arriving in the future? I should imagine only a very substantial sum could do that, which is not something that would ever be agreed to. Is it more acknowledgment you're seeking and the payment is symbolic of that?

@PursuingProxemicExactitude

What happened was totally wrong but no one alive today is responsible for it.

Surely the point is that one section of society continues to benefit from the profits of historic behaviour - while another section continues - today, now - to suffer the ill effects.

The purpose of reparation is not to punish perpetrators ("But, look, none of them our alive now!) but to repair the damage done to those who inherit a legacy of ill treatment.

It is extraordinary that non-white people should still have to be explaining how their entire lives are impacted every single day by this inheritance.

A handful of wealthy families have benefitted but 99% of the population at the time lived in poverty by today’s standards and have nothing to feel guilty about.

Seems a bit grabby to be demanding reparations.

Did I just read this? Did I really just read this?

Someone said up thread that they are in awe of how black mumsnetters are managing to respond with such elegance and rationality.

Sorry, I can't with this one. Fuck off. You're disgusting.

Heavens! How people do miss the point.

It is not about obliging people to feel guilty. It is about understanding the discrepancy in life experience and outcomes between, let us say, white and not white citizens of the U.K.

It is very clear that those posters very much on the defensive here have never once had to consider what it might be like to spend decade upon decade being perceived as 'less than' in the country of your birth.

Even people with numerous prestigious institutions on their CV live with this every day. Compare and contrast, for instance the discussions on Exeter university in the Black Mumsnetters section and the one elsewhere on MN. That is the legacy that needs to be repaired. Those fortunate children of educated, ambitious parents - still less able to make a free choice of university. Because the sons and daughters of MN posters believe they have a right to assault and attack them. And because the wives and husbands of MN posters, the adults leading such institutions, still cannot grasp their responsibilities properly or share leadership with their non-white peers. And because when their parents attempt to discuss these issues here, other posters attempt to drive them off the board because they're not "chatting happily".

I simply do not understand how anyone can, maliciously or otherwise, insist that the effects of history are now all in the past.

It was me who said that africanmixedkid. And I'm really struggling. So much of what I'm reading here is simply - gobsmacking. I want to respond - but I'm tying myself in knots because the actual truth is not something I'd want to go to the effort of expressing here.

Because the sons and daughters of MN posters believe they have a right to assault and attack them. And because the wives and husbands of MN posters, the adults leading such institutions, still cannot grasp their responsibilities properly or share leadership with their non-white peers.

What all of them? All our children are assaulting and attacking yours? One thing I notice about this board is that sweeping, offensive generalisations seem to be completely acceptable here.

No. I did not say all. That is a ridiculous suggestion. But I would be extremely surprised if not one single young person who has behaved with racially motivated hostility towards another student were not the child of a MN poster. There are a lot of us ...

sweeping, offensive generalisations

Seriously, babe - Try Being Me.

@PursuingProxemicExactitude

No. I did not say all. That is a ridiculous suggestion. But I would be extremely surprised if not one single young person who has behaved with racially motivated hostility towards another student were not the child of a MN poster. There are a lot of us ...

sweeping, offensive generalisations

Seriously, babe - Try Being Me.

I'm sure. That's why I wonder why you did it.

HmmSureJan - this is a discussion, on the Black Mumsnetters board, about reparations.

It is perhaps not an appropriate forum for you to set about demolishing the thoughts and experiences expressed by blacks people.

Surely you have something better to do?