Reparations

[africanmixedkid]

Can we talk about this?
It's something that I feel needs to discussed and a collective campaign to force countries responsible for the slave trade to address. Black mumsnetters what do you think?

The UK has gained huge wealth off of the back of the slave trade. eastmidlandsbylines.co.uk/whose-ill-gotten-gains/

Reparations is something I hear many of the black community shout. But how do we go about getting this?

Can I just ask those commenting if they're black mumsnetters? I get the feeling that some aren't from some of the responses I'm reading.

@Oopsyouvedoneitagain

This would be complicated to unravel.

Obviously the trans Atlantic slave trade was facilitated by Africans in Western Africa who captured and sold their human merchandise to European traders. The poverty of those countries would make it unconscionable for them to pay reparation to those in the Western World enjoying a comparatively high standard of living.

Which leads on to a second question, what loss the current descendants of slaves have suffered? As a generalisation, those in Europe will be experiencing relative stability and affluence compared to their counterparts in Africa.

Further how could a definitive list of descendants of slaves be compiled? And what about those with ancestors who had been slave owners themselves (both white and black slave owners), would they morally be entitled to compensation?

I can absolutely see the force of argument for compensation those who were enslaved, no-one today would argue with that. But compensation for the current generation for the suffering of their ancestors who were given freedom over 150-200 years ago, is difficult to understand.

Your last sentence just summed up the complete lack of understanding around the topic.

Can I just ask those commenting if they're black mumsnetters?

Yes, I'm Black.

& Can already tell the usual has happened - (unasked for) Whitesplaining of enslavement, & so-called 'comparisons'.

Good post btw & your responses africanmixedkid. Food for thought.

@DeeCeeCherry

Yes, it needs to be a conversation. Most Diaspora Africans are descended from enslaved Africans. Slave owners' descendants were paid compensation at the end of the slave trade; our taxes actually went towards their payments until 2015 or so, which is such a cheek.

A slap in the face for descendants of the stolen. Blatant injustice and bias.

I feel this is the angle from which reparations demands must start. I did hear Lloyds were speaking of funding BAME organisations as some form of compensation, which is bullshit. They just do not want to be seen or responsible for compensating Diaspora Africans, and we know majority funds would go to 'AME' anyway.

Not to mention the whataboutery that would ensue from those who can't do anything off their own backs/can't stand for us to be seen as 'getting' anything but are happy to climb on ours "why should Black people get this when we didn't get that".

Our circumstances must be looked at separately, and compensation should be on an individual basis.

Tax refund for a start.

I agree it would be the AME that would benefit from individual companies funding projects. This a black issue, no other race has been stripped of their autonomy and identity on such as scale. It should be addressed as a black issue.

Which leads on to a second question, what loss the current descendants of slaves have suffered? As a generalisation, those in Europe will be experiencing relative stability and affluence compared to their counterparts in Africa

You have no clue.

For those of us whose parents came to UK from the Caribbean - they did so as Caribbean was colonised and stripped of all it had. No opportunities for young people. So as 'British Overseas Citizens', they came here to work and make a life. Mostly after being invited to be 'The Help' here...

What 'stability' do we enjoy? Because we have some "things?". In a country where racism is rife, impacting upon everything from educational opportunities to medical treatment to police/law injustice, and yet is still denied?

What about the 'stability' of the descendants of slaveowners or is that to be conveniently put aside to fit an uninformed narrative?

I'd have preferred by far not to grow up here but had no choice.

Where I can help it in future I will only respond to Black Mumsnetters who know what time it is, otherwise it will be deflecting and derailment all over the place.

Those non-Black voices that do understand are drowned out by others who just crave centre stage when Black people are talking and want to pose and ask questions they think we're somehow obliged to answer

campaign to force countries responsible for the slave trade to address

As per the OP.

Not "Black people you prove why and how you deserve compensation because we don't think you do, so here are our 100 questions and scenarios"🙄

General observation.

I'm afraid you can't have a discussion which drags in the descendants of the vast majority of 'white' people who were not slave owners and whose ancestors were disenfranchised and living impoverished lives, expecting them to pay for this 'reparation', yet not allow them a right of reply.

Or perhaps you can?

@DeeCeeCherry yes I don't want this discussion to be derailed.

As you said this needs to be the next path of discussion. I would like to see this lead to some concrete compensation scheme.

My questions are around how to go about it.

I've suggested genealogical research and ancestry research in the support of claims. What do you think to that?

For me this could be individual claims or collective.

Why should these communities pay back. They've already paid in with their loss of generational wealth, lack of education, lack of access to sufficient housing and healthcare. I don't know, loans don't feel right.

If your plan is to have this be paid by taxes, then these communities will already be paying for their own reparations through having to pay tax. You may get a slightly better from corporate tax, but you'll still have the descendants of those enslaved during the trans-atlantic slave trade (some who will also be descendants of slave owners) paying for their own reparations.

If it's a one-off personal payment, then it's a one and done thing and likely to be uneffective in changing anything. A system where the money is properly invested by the community, loaned and return, means not only is not all the money gone out at once, but it can be reused by members of the community over and over - it's paying it forward to the next generation just like wealthy families do all the time. It's really the closet I've heard of being able to recreate generational wealth because whatever number we can get the government to part with, dividing it up among everyone isn't going to get families there.

Yes, there is administration involved, but I'm not sure why I would trust the government that for so long enabled and fought for these injustices to be less corrupt or have less administration involved. Admin is always going to be involved - the question is who is going to be responsible for it. That I think is going to be a larger complication here.

If we want a realistic idea of how to get political support for reparation and how to manage it, we should look to the groups with the most similarities which is going to be Indigenous groups devastated by European colonization - and the problems between nations recognized and those that aren't with this is something to consider, but coming from that perspective and perspective of not thinking an individualistic solution can solve a social problem or that we can get the social support to get an amount big enough that it would make a difference once it's divided up to everyone, I stand by the choices of those nations who've since been able to loan out far more than the original amounts. It's not justice, but it's a way to reform social systems.

@BiBabbles I'm hearing you. But as I said distribution of funds in this way does not always get to the victims or it doesn't actually meet the compensation requirements of the individual.

This is an interesting article about just that www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5396340002

@Oopsyouvedoneitagain if you cannot contribute to the discussion we're having, I kindly ask you to refrain from posting.

This is supposed to be a safe space for black mumsnetters to discuss topics that directly apply to them and their lived experience. Please respect that.

africanmixedkid

I'd prefer a system where application is to the government, on an individual basis.

Funding organisations to deal with it would lead to top-heavy management, red tape admin, and talking and talking but doing nothing except keep their (well-paid) posts, and aim to attract lots of 'diversity funding' for their own benefit, not ours.

& We wouldn't be in the majority on the 'panel' either. So it may as well be the government.

I've suggested genealogical research and ancestry research in the support of claims. What do you think to that?

I think it's a good idea.
Although I'm minded that (a) we are not White so it stands to reason our descendent is not western European so our enslaved ancestors got here by other means.

& (b) There are records of several Caribbean islands so we can trace back to before Emancipation.

But whatever way that helps, is good. I'm not a great believer in collective in reparations respect albeit I think it works for other issues we face.

Check your privilege and educate yourself!

Lawd.

Shut up Oops you sound like a badly scripted wannabe African American sitcom

@Oopsyouvedoneitagain and your lack of understanding that just because a black person is living in a terrace in the UK as opposed to a mud hut in Sierra Leone and that they can still face inequality, poverty, injustice and the rest just highlights why you really shouldn't be contributing to a discussion like this.

@africankid

I was asked a question, I responded. Ergo contributing to discussion. Please respect that.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Dastardlythefriendlymutt
Well, is it fair to have the cut off for reparations for colonialism to be 1881 and limit it to Africa? What about Australia? Hawaii? Phillipines? Canada? Mexico? Brazil? United States? All of Central America? Argentina? Patagonia?
I mean we can safely argue that the slave trade in Africans was by far and large the biggest example of the atrocity of slavery, but we can’t make the same argument about Africa and colonialism. Especially when you consider that the first British colony in Africa, Freetown, was specifically founded by buying land from African chiefs and then giving it to rescued slaves from when the British did a naval blockade of Africa to try and stop the slave trade by caputuring slave ships and then settling the slavers back in Africa as free people.[/quote]
No it is nit fair to limit it to Africa @PlanDeRaccordement, I'm just pointing out that the fast majority of colonies do not have the problems or limitations you describe. I'm sure much is true and similar for other countries. There are only a select few where it becomes problematic but that itself should definitely not be a barrier, even to slavery, these wrongs must be righted

*DeeDeeCherry

I think it's a good idea.
Although I'm minded that (a) we are not White so it stands to reason our descendent is not western European so our enslaved ancestors got here by other means.

& (b) There are records of several Caribbean islands so we can trace back to before Emancipation.

But whatever way that helps, is good. I'm not a great believer in collective in reparations respect albeit I think it works for other issues we face.
*
Point a is what I've been trying to get at. The simple fact you're of African descent but a Caribbean national is proof of slave descendants. Balance of probabilities and all that.

Point b. I feel I've been gaslighted by a few posters regarding this. I knew there were birth records prior to abolishment. Literally discussed it with my partner recently, his family are Jamaican and grandma is in her 90s we figured we could get the details going back at least 2 generations before her which takes us to before emancipation.

It was that conversation that triggered this thread. I think if this is going to be done though, it needs to be done soon, before the elders die. I know that might sound a little blunt but it's the truth. The elders are the key here.

I wouldn’t presume to stereotype the citizens of Sierra Leone and assume that they all live in mud huts.

However Sierra Leone illustrated the point I was trying to make. They have suffered brutality and human rights abuses that those living in the UK are totally immune from. You don’t live in daily fear of your DC stolen as a child soldier, your village torched and family raped. The inequity faced by a black person living in Britain may be real, but it is not comparable with the violence and instability lived with daily in Sierra Leone.

This point was made in response to my original comment that people living in the UK generally enjoy more stability and often a better standard of living than those living in Africa.

@DeeCeeCherry

Can I just ask those commenting if they're black mumsnetters?

Yes, I'm Black.

& Can already tell the usual has happened - (unasked for) Whitesplaining of enslavement, & so-called 'comparisons'.

Good post btw & your responses africanmixedkid. Food for thought.

Ignore the whaboutery, it is rife here.

Good thought provoking post. Reparations must be paid. It is only fair. We find ways to do more difficult things but the whataboutery and stonewalling that comes up when addressing the legacy of slavery and colonialism is disturbing.

Simple things like returning stolen historical artefacts are fought every single step of the way. It is honestly quite unconscionable
qz.com/africa/1758619/europes-museums-are-fighting-to-keep-africas-stolen-artifacts/

Ignore the gaslighting it's par for the course around here at times, others just want to be the "voices that they are not" or have an axe to grind. Let them argue amongst themselves. Or not. Whatever.

Yes I'm surprised when people aren't aware that Black Caribbeans are Diaspora Africans - the indigenous populations of the Caribbean were killed off when enslavement began.

Has it not ever dawned on them that African surnames don't tend to be English, French etc so how on earth do they think Caribbeans came by those surnames?

You are right, it has to be before the elders die and more of us need to be securing this information in case needed in future (not just reparations, but those family land wrangles that arise...)

It's great that your husband's grandma is still here (I bet she has some interesting history and stories to tell🙂). Yes from her Birth Certificate you'll have her parents' names and then can get their Birth Certicates too with their parents names, and so on.

& Yes, the elders are the key here there's no doubt about that. But I'm finding that young people are fairly diligent in finding their history and lineage. Which is also very useful.

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt yep the whataboutary is rife. Oops post is literally just that.

Complete lack of understanding. It's draining.

There's just a complete lack of understanding of the hurt, pain, anger and displacement along with the need for justice.

Sorry that reply was to africanmixedkid

@samanthawashington

The problem is when and where do you start and stop? Do we compensate the descendents of factory workers who were paid a pittance and died of preventable injuries and illnesses? Children shoved up chimneys? Jewish communities killed in Pogroms? The people of India, and other colonised countries? The ancestors of Australians deported to the wilds of Australia?

I mean, the list is endless. Everyone has a good case. Every civilisation enslaved people. Does Egypt need to compensate the Israelites? Americans give all the land back to native americans?

However wrong many peoples were with practices we now find abhorrent, we have to accept it was a dreadful part of history, but it was history. As a nation we would be better off halting the spread of modern day slavery, fighting FGM, working towards better education and empowerment of women in countries where they are enslaved in all but name, and to teach history with honesty.

Shhhhh stop with your rational thinking

I don't know if it's okay to post here as a white woman, feel free to tell me to bugger off if not.

I hope this doesn't come across as goady as it's not meant to...

Where would the reparations come from?

How would they be made without being taken from taxes paid by people whose ancestors had no benefit from slavery?

I ask this because my (white British & Irish) ancestors were dirt poor.

Half of my Irish ancestors lost their families to genocide by the English Govt via the Irish famine.

Not one of them would have had any benefit. I'm not saying their lot was as bad as slaves as clearly they had their freedom...but it was pretty dire, and their freedom was working every single day for very little, sleeping on a dirt floor, etc.

So I am interested in how reparations would work because I think I would feel pretty strongly that (a) my ancestors didn't benefit from slavery and (b) it would raise the question about reparations for the Irish famine (which isn't a reason not to have reparations for slavery but I'm interested in whether you think it should be extended to this or not).