Reparations

[africanmixedkid]

Can we talk about this?
It's something that I feel needs to discussed and a collective campaign to force countries responsible for the slave trade to address. Black mumsnetters what do you think?

The UK has gained huge wealth off of the back of the slave trade. eastmidlandsbylines.co.uk/whose-ill-gotten-gains/

Reparations is something I hear many of the black community shout. But how do we go about getting this?

Why don't the families that received compensation for slave ownership return the compensation?

@User478 why don't they indeed. I think if it was as simple as that we wouldn't be having this discussion.

A freedom of information request was made to the government requesting the names of those that compensation was paid to. The government refused the FOI request.

@africanmixedkid
The fact that slave descendents are still at a disadvantage compared to slave owner descendents almost two centuries after abolishment proves just how wide the gap was to begin with. In a lot of ways it doesn’t matter how much it has closed or how close to equal opportunities are now, generations had to suffer to shrink the chasm into the gap we see today.

No, I don't think those would be sufficient. Genetic ancestry is still wobbly tech at best, and there would be the issue when quite a many those are descendants of the enslaved will have slaveowner genetics too for obvious reasons. Records might be usable for some plans I've seen for the US particularly and possibly for the UK for some for of tax credit/refund, but it's not really going to help people in Caribbean countries where that's a large part of the population.

Another issue that even the largest figures out there for reparation, many of which are very unlikely to be sold politically to make it actually happen -- if we divided up whatever large figure you wish by everyone now...yeah, someone may have their rent or mortgage paid for a year, maybe, but how does that solve any of the societal issues that continue on from the transatlantic slave trade, the denial of generational wealth that the recognized descendants of slave owners have been able to build up - it doesn't really create any sort of balance to that, and I think trying to make one equivalent to the other isn't going to work.

Atonement isn't possible, there is no justice to be had here only repairs, and if we're going to do something under the banner of reparation, it needs to produce results (and be able to get enough people to want and be behind to pressure the government to do it because otherwise it won't happen). If it doesn't change anything, it could be viewed as shut up money.

Personally, I think what some Indigenous groups have done could be adapted -- the money put into trust that could grow and an organization makes very low cost, low qualifying loans to people who come forward with a plan (and get support making it) about wanted to start businesses, learn trades, the kind of things that those with generational wealth are able to ask their families for that will benefit themselves and the wider community. The state backed the destruction of families, so the state could back this with the control of the loans in an appropriate committee - in the UK, we could even make it similar to student loans where people who qualify don't pay back until they earn a certain amount.

Internationally, governments and corporations who still take money out of those countries could be pushed with enough social backing to financially support similar projects, like the peer-to-peer lending that is already popular in some communities, but larger.

The thing is, it isn't about whether the government 'wants to or not', it's whether there is wide enough social support to push them to do something. It would need to be huge.

If you want to know who was paid compensation, then you want this database.

I believe some of the Caribbean countries hold archives of slave records. And there is genetic ancestry research.

But this still makes it unworkable because neither archives or genetic testing are an exact science and records do not always survive. How would this be fair to those for who there are no surviving records of their ancestors? Or those whose ancestry cannot be proven by DNA testing?

I've seen and researched both slave records and parish register records for St Thomas in the Vale (now St Catherine's parish?). The slave records do not name slaves or not fully, and parish records often only give a first name, or "Susan wife of..." for example.

DNA testing is only really reliable for Y haplo direct male line, father to son, but that is only one line of a tree and we all have many other lines in our tree. So for example if somones father only had sisters and then he himself only had daughters but the father is deceased and so are all his known male cousins and ancestors, then a Y haplo test is not available for any of his offspring because there is no direct male line left to test. There might be some distant male relative somewhere but proving a connection would also be extremely difficult and reliant on records, if those records have even survived

It would not be fair to those who cannot prove themselves to be the ancestors of slaves, to only compensate those who can.

Also some slave owners in the BWI were Black, as was seen in one epsiode of WDYTYA . Again how would you disentangle this?. If some were both the descendants of slaves and of slave owners?

I dont see how its workable. The best thing to do now is target poverty in both the Caribbean and in the UK for extra funding.

@samanthawashington
Today’s DNA tests have gotten very good at identifying slave descendents in the US. Partly because the masters raped the slave women and so when you do a DNA test that comes up West Africa plus a smidge of European ancestry tracing back to the southern states...you can see the facts in the DNA.

The scientists could conceivably expand this to trace out the DNA of all black people outside Africa. In addition, if someone’s family recently emigrated out of Africa, they know that history of their family. They know they left Nigeria to come to the U.K., or that their grandfather left Mali to go to US. Their DNA would show that story too.

DNA testing is only really reliable for Y haplo direct male line, father to son, but that is only one line of a tree and we all have many other lines in our tree.

Isn’t there also reliable DNA testing of mitochondrial DNA which would trace the female line?

It would not be fair to those who cannot prove themselves to be the ancestors of slaves, to only compensate those who can.

So what? Every fund set up for victim compensation only pays to the victims that can prove it to a reasonable standard. The fact that a few won’t get compensation is not a valid reason to deny compensation to all victims. They made the same arguments regarding the compensation fund set up for the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. Demanding a guarantee that of 100% perfection of not missing anyone is just an excuse to not try at all.

Isn’t there also reliable DNA testing of mitochondrial DNA which would trace the female line

Yes but its not as reliable and again it is only one line

DNA testing also relies on accurate paper chase family trees. But the problem is that many trees are inaccurate and not all paper records, eg census or parish register, survive. Also there is the case that some children would be illegitimate or that the recorded father in records is not the biological father

The problem is when and where do you start and stop? Do we compensate the descendents of factory workers who were paid a pittance and died of preventable injuries and illnesses? Children shoved up chimneys? Jewish communities killed in Pogroms? The people of India, and other colonised countries? The ancestors of Australians deported to the wilds of Australia?

I mean, the list is endless. Everyone has a good case. Every civilisation enslaved people. Does Egypt need to compensate the Israelites? Americans give all the land back to native americans?

However wrong many peoples were with practices we now find abhorrent, we have to accept it was a dreadful part of history, but it was history. As a nation we would be better off halting the spread of modern day slavery, fighting FGM, working towards better education and empowerment of women in countries where they are enslaved in all but name, and to teach history with honesty.

*Atonement isn't possible, there is no justice to be had here only repairs, and if we're going to do something under the banner of reparation, it needs to produce results (and be able to get enough people to want and be behind to pressure the government to do it because otherwise it won't happen). If it doesn't change anything, it could be viewed as shut up money.

Personally, I think what some Indigenous groups have done could be adapted -- the money put into trust that could grow and an organization makes very low cost, low qualifying loans to people who come forward with a plan (and get support making it) about wanted to start businesses, learn trades, the kind of things that those with generational wealth are able to ask their families for that will benefit themselves and the wider community. The state backed the destruction of families, so the state could back this with the control of the loans in an appropriate committee - in the UK, we could even make it similar to student loans where people who qualify don't pay back until they earn a certain amount. *

So the target of reparation would be at community level rather than individual. I see your point but the suggestion of "loans" doesn't sit well with me. Why should these communities pay back. They've already paid in with their loss of generational wealth, lack of education, lack of access to sufficient housing and healthcare. I don't know, loans don't feel right.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@samanthawashington
Today’s DNA tests have gotten very good at identifying slave descendents in the US. Partly because the masters raped the slave women and so when you do a DNA test that comes up West Africa plus a smidge of European ancestry tracing back to the southern states...you can see the facts in the DNA.

The scientists could conceivably expand this to trace out the DNA of all black people outside Africa. In addition, if someone’s family recently emigrated out of Africa, they know that history of their family. They know they left Nigeria to come to the U.K., or that their grandfather left Mali to go to US. Their DNA would show that story too.[/quote]
Exactly my point. There has to be a way of proving how far ancestral genetics go back in line with records.

My question around reparation was first peaked when I had W discussion with an ex boyfriend around ancestry. He is of West Indian origin. Has a Scottish surname. I'm mixed with African origin. I can trace my family tree further back than him. But his DNA will still show that he has African genetics probably with European in there and that coupled with family records going back as far as possible will prove that they're descendants are of slaves. His family haven't just migrated to Cariacou.

Today’s DNA tests have gotten very good at identifying slave descendents in the US. Partly because the masters raped the slave women and so when you do a DNA test that comes up West Africa plus a smidge of European ancestry tracing back to the southern states...you can see the facts in the DNA.

There are some considerable differences between USA ancestry and Caribbean ancestry. The Caribbean was/is much more mixed historically, and especially by mixed marriage. The UK too, because there was no legal barrier to mixed marriage, while in the USA there was and until relatively recently

I still don't think personal reparations would be equitable because many people would not be able to prove their ancestry beyond reasonable doubt. Even many people with English ancestors cannot prove their ancestry on some lines prior to 1841 and especially if they had common names.

Not all records survive and also genealogy is expensive and time consuming. How would this be paid for? Even if people did their own research, it would still have to be checked. Wouldn't it be better to help all people who are deprived with the money. In both the UK and the Caribbean. If you start splitting people into those who can prove it and those who cannot, it would cause resentment, even within families

I still don't think personal reparations would be equitable because many people would not be able to prove their ancestry beyond reasonable doubt.

The proof would only need to be on the balance of probability.

But his DNA will still show that he has African genetics probably with European in there

This where it gets really inaccurate. What you're talking about here is the 3rd type of commerically available DNA testing (there are only 3). Called autosomal DNA, also known as the ethnicity test, it is wildly unreliable and especially at the lower percentages. It is so inaccurate that identical twins can get completely different results. The lower percent results, eg 8% African or 12% Indian subcontinent are just noise in the mix, and do not mean anything at all.

www.pnas.org/content/112/12/3669

This seems an interesting read. Flax meadow. You're doing a lot of we can'ts. What about the can.

Flax meadow. You're doing a lot of we can'ts. What about the can.

Almost every post I've made has given a case for more funding for deprived people in both the Caribbean and the UK.

I just don't see how personal reparations would be possible. When you consider the records, or lack of them, and how genealogy is not an exact science. Even genealogy by DNA is not an exact science or in many cases possible to test for. A DNA Y haplo test would also put men at much greater chance of providing evidence because it is a male only test. A family if male siblings would be at greater advantage than a family of female siblings

It would be unfair to split the descendants of slaves into those who can prove it and those who cannot.

Many of us may have white skin but our ancestors were slaves in all but name - sent as children to work for "employers" who provided such low renumeration they were staving, their children died and if they got injured from the back breaking work they ended up in the work house where life expectancy was short. We should people like me have to contribute to any fund (through my taxes) when even 120 years ago my relatives were being beaten by their employer as children sent to be in service. Also due to intermarriage over decades - how much slave decendancy is needed ? 1/8, 1/16, 1/32? What about those forced to work the land in Ireland who starved? Trust me being white and poor had no privilege in Victorian Britain.

It's too fraught with issues - far better legacy is to eliminate modern slavery which is alive and well.

It would be worth government funded research at universities to find and record the genomes of enslaved Africans. Archaeologists take DNA samples when they study slave cemeteries (done respectfully and usually as salvage archaeology). I read one study done of a free African population cemetary in Philadelphia. They took DNA samples there too.

Yes the private ethnicity DNA tests are not as accurate as they could be, but they are getting there and very quickly.

Too I agree it wouldn’t be prove beyond reasonable doubt, but prove balance of probabilities for reparations payment. I did think community level instead of individual was an interesting proposal but too often the administrative overhead gets too corrupted and very little gets to the actual beneficiaries.

We should people like me have to contribute to any fund (through my taxes) when even 120 years ago my relatives were being beaten by their employer as children sent to be in service.

You shouldn’t. That’s why funds for slavery reparations should not come from general taxation. It should be from corporation tax and wealth tax because it’s the big businesses and wealthy that benefited from slavery, not the poor working classes.

I did think community level instead of individual was an interesting proposal but too often the administrative overhead gets too corrupted and very little gets to the actual beneficiaries.

My thoughts too. Community funding is open to corruption and just general administrative waste.

Yes, it needs to be a conversation. Most Diaspora Africans are descended from enslaved Africans. Slave owners' descendants were paid compensation at the end of the slave trade; our taxes actually went towards their payments until 2015 or so, which is such a cheek.

A slap in the face for descendants of the stolen. Blatant injustice and bias.

I feel this is the angle from which reparations demands must start. I did hear Lloyds were speaking of funding BAME organisations as some form of compensation, which is bullshit. They just do not want to be seen or responsible for compensating Diaspora Africans, and we know majority funds would go to 'AME' anyway.

Not to mention the whataboutery that would ensue from those who can't do anything off their own backs/can't stand for us to be seen as 'getting' anything but are happy to climb on ours "why should Black people get this when we didn't get that".

Our circumstances must be looked at separately, and compensation should be on an individual basis.

Tax refund for a start.

@Flaxmeadow

Flax meadow. You're doing a lot of we can'ts. What about the can.

Almost every post I've made has given a case for more funding for deprived people in both the Caribbean and the UK.

I just don't see how personal reparations would be possible. When you consider the records, or lack of them, and how genealogy is not an exact science. Even genealogy by DNA is not an exact science or in many cases possible to test for. A DNA Y haplo test would also put men at much greater chance of providing evidence because it is a male only test. A family if male siblings would be at greater advantage than a family of female siblings

It would be unfair to split the descendants of slaves into those who can prove it and those who cannot.

You do realise that vast amounts of the Caribbean are deprived don't you. Large parts of the islands live well below poverty level.

There's also the argument of dignity. If it's individual, it really does feel like compensation for something that was..well simply wrong. Criminal.

If it's community, it feels a bit like it's charity. And not acknowledging the wrong that was done.

This would be complicated to unravel.

Obviously the trans Atlantic slave trade was facilitated by Africans in Western Africa who captured and sold their human merchandise to European traders. The poverty of those countries would make it unconscionable for them to pay reparation to those in the Western World enjoying a comparatively high standard of living.

Which leads on to a second question, what loss the current descendants of slaves have suffered? As a generalisation, those in Europe will be experiencing relative stability and affluence compared to their counterparts in Africa.

Further how could a definitive list of descendants of slaves be compiled? And what about those with ancestors who had been slave owners themselves (both white and black slave owners), would they morally be entitled to compensation?

I can absolutely see the force of argument for compensation those who were enslaved, no-one today would argue with that. But compensation for the current generation for the suffering of their ancestors who were given freedom over 150-200 years ago, is difficult to understand.

Many of us may have white skin but our ancestors were slaves in all but name - sent as children to work for "employers" who provided such low renumeration they were staving
^
Whataboutery example. It never takes long to arrive 🙄. What does this have to do with people stolen from their countries forced into the brutality of enslavement, their very names and traditions stripped away, families divided never to see each other again?

It's not a comparison game.
The issue you describe is White on White/seperate and that's where you should take it up.

Personally I won't "carry" for others. Singular goal is reparations as tribute to my Ancestors stolen away from their countries, to a country that was not theirs and within which unto today their descendants still face racist injustice - lack of reparations is a part of it all.