shadeism

[allinadaystwerk]

Before I start, have to say I am so happy to find this section. Thank you to the pioneers who fought for it.

Now to the point of my thread, What are your experiences or opinions on shadeism? Does it exist and to what extent?

I think it does exist and I hate it. As a light skinned woman I have seen and heard it happen to people with dark skin. I always challenge it and I am hopeful it will change.

So is there such a thing as 'light' privilege?

@AMemeByAnyOtherName loving your energy and vibe so glad for this category

Has anyone heard of texturism?

Yes. I'm mixed race (white mother, black father) with short 4C hair and been on the receiving end of nasty comments since I was a child. A guy called me "nappy" when I was a teen and I just pretended not to know what he meant.

My DD has a looser texture and always gets lovely comments about how it came out "nice and not rough like afro hair"- said by a white woman.

@luckystarmaking it's definitely a thing... the terms good hair and bad hair. Hear it too often. We have to learn to love and embrace our hair and skin. I think the influence is sttong though. For mixed race people the expectation is to have long spirals or corkscrew curls, if it comes out 4c I can imagine the comments. I hope you love your 4c hair. A preacher i listened to once said... dont you call my hair bad! I got good hair! I got hair that stays where I put it till I move it! I think he was spot on

You only have to look at the Youtube videos for natural hair care. The most watched or popular bloggers are the women with the looser hair types imo. Also those with long hair are popular too.

Because of the false accusations saying this space was not welcoming to anyone not black, I really need to preface my question with the fact that I am trying to ask this as respectfully as possible and I am not trying to tell anyone what they are or aren't. Your racial identity within reason is yours alone (Rachel Dolezal anyone?).

If you are mixed race (white and black parents) do you find it weird that you can identify both as mixed race and black but not white even though you are half of both? Even a white passing mixed race person (MM??) would identify as mixed race rather than white. Why? (Yes rhetorical, white supremacy and all, but do you find it offensive and if not why?)

I know like PP said upthread the accusations of not being "black enough" from black people and feeling like you don't belong. However do you think sometimes because of colourism, featurism and texturism that there is a privilege you have as a mixed race person of being able to choose your race as either black or mixed race depending on the situation? I mean a dark skinned black woman is only a black woman and nothing else, she can't choose to identify as mixed race. So sometimes the blurring of the line between mixed race and black sometimes disadvantages unambiguously black people in the way BAME does black people when it comes to representation because of things like colourism.

I say with the caveat black comes in all shades, they are black people with lighter skin tones than mixed race people. Typically the lived experience of a mixed race person is black or if not closer to the black experience than white. Patrick herself is mixed race who campaigned for this space, so I mean absolutely no disrespect or harm in asking. I have seen this topic recently being debated.

I also have both mixed race family members who identify as mixed race solely and others who identify as black for various reasons.

Because of slavery Black Americans have on average 25% european ancestry. The 1 drop rule also automatically makes you black, so obviously the argument is completely different.

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt. I'm not 100% sure what you are asking but I'll answer the best I can and hope I have understood. I agree, mixed race people who are 1/2 white can identify as mixed or black but not white and that speaks volumes when you consider tbe reality. I have a white dm and a black dd. For me if you are not white you are black. Therefore I state I am black unless asked specifically. I have had a black experience including racism and black culture is relevant to me. However I have also been rejected as a black woman by both black and white people so I understand why done people prefer to differentiate. Also it is different for other mixes (ie not african heritage) The one drop rule makes me black enough to have been enslaved.

For me if you are not white you are black. Therefore I state I am black unless asked specifically. I have had a black experience including racism and black culture is relevant to me.

I agree. The world looks at you and sees a black person, and treats you as a black person so you are black.

It gets difficult to police people and say you are black or not black enough, because blackness itself comes in so many shades. And who then is the arbiter of who is and isn't black?

However I have also been rejected as a black woman by both black and white people so I understand why done people prefer to differentiate

I do understand this. I have spent some time in South Africa where there is definitely a distinction between black and mixed race, (apartheid hangover), and someone mixed race may even be offended to be labelled black. As a result I always wait for someone to make the distinction themselves as to what they identify with or prefer to be called.

Also it is different for other mixes (ie not african heritage) The one drop rule makes me black enough to have been enslaved.

Noone is looking at you saying you are only 50% or 25% black you get a pass.

I spent a lot of time in North Africa and the ME. It was so sad to see skin lightening products advertised on TV and for sale in the markets. Quite apart from the 'shade ism' the chemicals they contained must have been utterly toxic.

It,s been covered of TV a few times both with in afrocaribean communities. (Bleaching creams were covered.) and also with in the indian races which was often linked to the casting system.
But even with the Chinease comunities if you are not the main Chinese race you can be looked down apon.

My DC are mixed, I'm black Dh is white. They both identify as black and I see them as black. When my ds was at uni, he was asked countless times in clubs if he was "a dealer ". Also stopped numerous times after using the self checkout in supermarkets ( none of his white friends were stopped). Dd is at uni now, and amongst numerous dumb comments has had " I feel really sorry for you being the only black girl here". Both dc are quite light skinned. Ds has green eyes, but they're dark enough to have racist shit thrown at them. So yeah, if you're not white, you're black. Also I don't know any black people who thought MM was white.

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt I understand that topic is a minefield! I'll do my best to give my perspective.

You're absolutely right that I as a mixed race person can identify as black, or mixed, but not as white. I am fairly pale, which on a side note; MM is not white passing at all in my opinion. I saw that suggestion yesterday on another forum, but I was in disbelief. The moment I saw her in Suits I knew she was mixed race.

I can absolutely see where you're coming from. My mother is 'black black', I'm 'mixed black'. DM has made it clear my entire life that she believes I have a greater advantage in life than her. I can see why she thinks that, but my experiences haven't been as plain sailing as she would have thought.

It's a multi faceted issue. Some people have very strict 'criteria' for what passes as white, and any kind of mix will instantly exclude you. Often times, those same people are the ones with racist views, but I have genuinely met some that didn't have a racist bone in their body but they just saw it as a fact. I've never wanted to pass as white, so I've never cared, but it has always been interesting that I've been black even though I'm only 50% black, but I can't be white when I am 50% white. To me, it feels like the distinction between a well known brand and other competitors. A Hoover is actually a brand, vacuum cleaners are often called Hoovers but they're not. They can never be Hoovers, but a Hoover is always a vacuum cleaner. I don't know if that even makes any sense

Anyway, I do actually get the same treatment from people who are fully black, or much darker than me. They have had struggles that they don't believe I could understand and therefore they don't think I'm entitled to class myself as one of them. At one point I was bullied and called all sorts of names by black girls at my school, including 'Albino'. (Which by the way is one of my favourite examples of a racist incident that I do not consider to be anywhere near as bad as the racism towards black people in the UK). I think if I was to enter a competition for black writers, say, and won; people would be upset. I understand that, and I don't put myself forwards for things like that, because I have a deep understanding that I could probably have a better chance of winning a prize in a regular competition than black people with darker skin. They need to be shown that they are important and they need opportunities that normal life doesn't hand out to them so freely. They need equity. I think this is what you meant about the disadvantages of blurring the lines, and I think it's important that some mixed people realise that.

But the main thing for me as a mixed person who is proud of my black heritage is opportunities like these on MN, to talk to people who know what I mean when I say steups or ask where to buy breadfruit. Or could give me advice on my hair. Those are the times when I would love the shade of my skin not to matter, because I feel just as black as anybody else.

I'm actually very glad you asked that question, because it's often an elephant in the room and I think it's so important to clarify things like this.

(MM is a bad white passing example agreed, Shaun King is a better example with all his controversy too)

Wow Meme you gave a really nuanced answer. It is a very difficult topic.

I don't know per se I would be bothered about you winning a competition for black writers. But perhaps like Amandla Stenberg walked away from the role of Shuri in Black Panther because she felt it was a space she shouldn't insert herself in and felt the role would be better played by a darker actress. In a way Amandla has roles open to her for mixed race characters and black characters whilst Laetitia Wright is only eligible for the few black character roles and cannot "walk"into a mixed race space. Both have limited roles available to them, but one more so. I understand that being potentially problematic but can't say I would have felt extremely bothered had Amandla won the role, but if say half the cast were mixed race I would have given it a bit of a side eye.

It is like Zendaya says that she is aware she is Hollywood's acceptable version of a black girl and that has to change.

I get your analogy about Hoovers and vacuum cleaners. I know that is the way it is. I'm in no way advocating for the two to be distinct categories because that comes with it's own negative and detrimental challenges.

It is an interesting topic.

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt if you catch me at the right time of day I can be quite articulate 🤪😂

I was thinking about your original question as well as your response and something occurred to me.

I feel to some extent that black people only need to identify as black because of the othering and the struggles they have faced over the centuries. If humans were always on equal footing and working together, I don't think there would be such a stark distinction until you got to things like makeup or hair care, where skin colour actually does make a difference to the approach.

So white people identify as white, but historically that really just meant 'people' requiring no further clarification.

Black people identify as black, but historically they were just 'not white' and therefore not eligible for the same treatment as white people.

So mixed race people (mixed white and black) can automatically categorise themselves amongst black people, because they are also 'other'. They can't classify themselves as white because the deeper implication of white is still to a large extent 'requiring no further classification'.

Mixed race people are still part of a category where a balance needs to be redressed, not just because they feel that they experience similar othering, but also because they have often lived through the struggles of their black parent and they can see things still aren't right.

Thanks for asking your question these are normally shower thoughts for me 😂

I feel to some extent that black people only need to identify as black because of the othering and the struggles they have faced over the centuries. If humans were always on equal footing and working together, I don't think there would be such a stark distinction until you got to things like makeup or hair care, where skin colour actually does make a difference to the approach.

You are absolutely right Meme. I was going to mention the gate keeping to whiteness being the actual problem, because everyone else is in the "other" category and therefore black. Then there is a hierarchy based on race and your proximity to "whiteness".

Even the factors that make it problematic: colourism, featurism and texturism all stem from the definition of whiteness and those who are non-white's proximity to it. And external communities playing on those differences and exploiting so much that we internalise them ourselves.

But as you say you see things through your black parent's eyes and dare I say your own eyes because that is the box you are placed in.

At the end of the day our lived experience is more alike than not.

And for what it's worth Meme I think you always make a lot of sense. I'm always glad to get a response from you!

Same to you Dastardly!

Shadeism

@skedaddIe um, well that's certainly not the most constructive contribution to the topic, but thanks all the same. We'll take that under advisement. Have a good evening.

I don’t think in the work place necessarily been black but of a lighter skin tone is seen as a privilege. Within our own community though yes I do absolutely for some strange reason it seemed to be the lighter skin you have you are deemed as more attractive. Compared to someone with darker skin. Also in a celebrity world there’s definitely a trend.

@Blulorry

Check out this study for how colourism affects income

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41996-020-00054-1

Granted it is an American study, but whether the bias is conscious or unconscious it definitely permeates the workplace

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41996-020-00054-1

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt I’ve had a read probably higher up the career ladder you get colourist people. I do think though comparing of shades of black starts from our own community mainly... I have never heard a heard a white people really you words like “are you brown skin” or “light skinned” these questions are brought up within the black community.

It’s interesting those that are mixed race and they identify as black... I think this is down to upbringing and what your parents must have referred to you as a young child. My mother is mixed race and my dad is black... my mother’s sister has the same mix of children. None of us refer to ourselves as mixed raced but on my dads side I have cousins (who are lighter and look) 1/2 black and white but they are in fact 3/4 like me but they refer to themselves as mixed race.

I remember listening to a podcast about Megan Markle I think you can clearly see she is mixed raced her hair is naturally NOT straight it’s obviously has been made to look so sleek and close up she does have black features and she has quite dark eyes. Even Archie MM and Harry’s baby.... he looks like MM and you can see he has black in him even though he is very pale in skin tone.

Yeah definitely, I don't think the bias is necessarily conscious just possibly maybe feeling more at ease with lighter skinned people.

Although it is definitely vocalised in our community I do think it is something inherited from slavery and colonialism where lighter skinned people with more eurocentric features where treated more favourably e.g. house slaves. Divide and conquer, you have a recent example of apartheid to see how white people used superficial features and stoked and magnified existing tensions to keep people fighting amongst themselves so they don't band together and fight the system. Colonialism and slavery worked the same way. I don't think it is something that originated in our communities.

You only have to look at Ambi adverts from 60s to 80s (made by white people) to question whether the bias is conscious or unconscious especially given what is happening in media currently and esp when you look at how brutally specific casting calls are.

I’ve been reading along with interest. Shadeism is definitely a thing. Paler skin and looser curl pattern hair were appreciated more when I was growing up. Definitely a legacy of slavery in a primarily black community.

I now have mixed race kids and wonder how they will experience the world. They look different from me (a black woman) and I think that in some cases they are viewed more positively than I am. It’s been interesting to see the views of Meme and other mixed race people as I try to imagine it from my kids’ perspective.