due Dec 08-the one were we are so brain dead we can't think of a thread title.

[Veggiemummy]

hey there will this be the last one do you think

Hello ladies, just wanted to remind you that you have 1 week left make sure you get included in the Secret Stork. So far i have 16 of you

aprilmeadow

Oh Veggie - hope you get a restful night's sleep and feel better in the morning.

kmp1 - The other day I managed to park on my own drive in such a way that a couldn't get past the car into my house - too near the fence on one side and the wall on the other and completely underestimated the size of my expanding bits!! I had to get back in the car and reverse - the neighbours must have had a right laugh! I'm sure you won't have done any damage - I fell flat on my bump with my last pregnancy and the baby was fine. They seem pretty well protected.

Verso Surely your career isn't over. After your maternity leave you can go back to work and try for promotion's or find a new job somewhere else in your line of work.

(BTW having a little job in a local supermarket is not that bad)

Verso I'm so sorry for you. It's so unfair that this has happened to you now. I know it's really difficult to see it now but am sure this doesn't mean your career is over. When you do go back to work you will have choices (and one of them is to sue them for discrimination....). There are employers out there who behave better than this.

I'm not saying it's not hard - because it really is. My old boss (who was a v v successful woman with children who had stayed at home for a while and then gone back to work) used to say it was perfectly possible to have both a brilliant career and children but not always possible to concentrate on both at the same time. And that when your babies were babies you sort of have to expect that your not going to make the same progress as you would if you were still childless. At the time I found this really shocking, but now I honestly think she was right. Not that you can't do it in general - but you can't pretend that taking time off work to have children isn't going to have an impact - even though it's only temporary.

And I hate that - and have found it really hard to adjust to - especially as I am quite ambitious and hated going back to work to find that I had to fight my corner to be taken seriously now I have to leave work at a reasonable hour.

I'm honestly so on your behalf. They really shouldn't have done this to you anyway - massively unprofessional - and it's horrendous to do it just before you go on maternity leave. Maybe just try and get through today - hopefully your feedback will help you get to the bottom of why they made the decision they did (but am v suspicious that your pregnancy might have been a factor). Then try and concentrate on the baby and enjoy that they're paying you to be at home.

Probably is better not to have a show down with them before you go off - if you can bear to not show how upset you are. Alternatively if you think a mob of angry pregnant women would help make the point that they've behaved really badly just tell us where to march to...

Veggie hope you're feeling better today - think you're heroic for managing on your own for so long - I'm struggling to look after DS on the odd afternoon when DH isn't around. Also think that knowing am about to totally change DS's world makes me feel worse about not having the energy to charge around with him. Hope it doesn't feel like too long now until your DH is back.

Am sure you want to avoid if you can but ranitidine really helps with bad reflux/heartburn and is safe to take in pregnancy (am basically still rattling around with anti-sickness meds which isn't great but better than throwing up).

Thanks, lal. (And kayz I've asked Mumsnet to remove my post as I posted in anger re supermarket jobs and I truly don't want to hurt anyone's feelings - just feeling very hurt myself, sorry)

lal - your post has made me cry . Just to know that someone else understands. The thing is, my boss has been brilliant this year - she knew I had two miscarriages last year and has been really supportive throughout this pregnancy. She has two children herself (she's a Director) and had nothing but support for me - and I thought she understood that I truly do want to go back to work and will give as much as I can to the job. She also knows my husband has multiple sclerosis, and that my ambition isn't just for me - it's also because at some point he will have to give up work or at least go part-time, so I need to be able to support the whole family.

I thought she got it. And then when she started "grooming" me for promotion back in July I trusted her. I think that's the hardest thing - the complete u-turn. It may be that someone higher up has put pressure on her and her boss (the guy I'm seeing today for feedback) because THEY have a doubt because I'm pregnant - but that still doesn't take away from the fact that they shouldn't have been so encouraging to me.

It was wrong and unprofessional. I could swallow this if I'd just been beaten fair and square by someone else and there had been no months of preparation and encouragement - but to find out yesterday that they haven't even made anyone else an offer... that wasn't true (!) ... the woman (how convenient it was a woman so I can't sue) they were going to offer to withdrew, apparently, because she was going to do an MA (I already have one btw). Well - so that leaves the position unfilled.

How could I have been such a strong candidate three weeks ago and now they're not even willing to consider an offer?!

Its ok Verso I've had a bad nights sleep and recently a few people in RL have made digs about me working in a supermarket.

Its bloody unfair that they encouraged you and then they never offered you the job.

Verso - I feel so sorry for you, you are in a horrible situation. However, to get the best out of it now you must remain calm for your feedback today (a) so you can get the info you need and (b) so you do no appear bitter and irrational and therefore make them feel validated in their decision.

When they interviewed you they should have had a set standard in mind above which any candidate would be acceptable and below which they would not. It does not matter if the external candidate was 500% better, if you were above the line you should legally have been offered the job. Ask them to specify exactly what qualities or experience you lack to come below the line. Ask them why, when they were actively encouraging you towards the job, they did not encourage training in that area. Ask them if they are now willing to spend money on training and development in that area. If they say no then they are effectivly depriving you of career oppurtunities which could be constructive dismissal. Ask them how they see your future at the company. Take a note book and write down everything they say (but don't look militant).

If you do not get satsifactory answers to the questions above then try calmly and reasonably asking whether your pregnancy was a factor (even pretend you understand how hard it must be to promote someone who is about to go on leave). If you ask the question reasonably it will scare them.

You may well have a case for discrimination. The fact they offered the job to another woman is totally irrelevant and would have no bearing on your case.

Good luck!

verso - that sounds like amazing advice from artichokes - and what LadyT said as well: dignity, calmness and professionalism is probably the order of the day - far scarier and impressive for those you're meeting than the seething feelings underneath.

i'm really sorry you're going through this. please keep us posted as to what is said

Morning all,

Verso just a very quick one as I'm off to my mw appointment but just wanted to say you might want to think about taking someone in with you to your meeting. A few months ago I was facing redundancy on unfair grounds (nothing to do with the pregnancy), and when I brought it up with my boss she basically said tough and laughed me out of her office. When it came to my official consultation meeting I took someone in with me and there was no way she could simply dismiss my points in front of witnesses. I ended up with a promotion in the end.

Also make a written summary of the meeting afterwards and email it to the person you had the meeting with. Then you have a written record of the meeting and they have the opportunity to refute anything you claim they have said. If they don't then that's the next best thing to them giving you reasons in writing. I do this every time I have HR-related dealings with anyone at work (which is surprisingly often) and it really does come in handy.

And who the hell withdraws a job application without even having had the satisfaction of being offered a job? Please!

Hope everyone's doing okay this morning - see you later

Verso good luck with your feedback meeting today. Try not to be too disheartened or emotional about it. I had a vaguely similar situation when I had DS1, was already a Director at a well respected London PR agency, and was actually told that I was in line to become an Associate Director, just needed to achieve a few 'goals' first. This all went very quiet when I told them I was pregnant. I returned to work after 6 months of ML, and fully expected to be promoted within 6 months of returning. The subject was never brought up again, but to be honest I didn't care as having DS made me realise that my career was really just a means to an end - anyone who knew me before I had DS was totally shocked by my turnaround. Anyway, after a year, and no promotion I left the company. At my feedback meeting before I left I gave one of the reasons for leaving as being overlooked for promotion and they explained this away as my perceived lack of commitment since having a baby .
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that once LO arrives your priorities will change and you may well be grateful to not have the extra commitment.
Ask all the questions you want today and don't let them fob you off, but try not to come across as an 'emotional pregnant' (as my Dad calls me) or they may well feel they've made the right decision.
I hope none of this sounds patronising, I really feel for you and hope you get some answers today that will allow you to move on and feel better about the situation.

Morning all...poor verso this is absolutely NOT what you need right now. I can't add any further advice, think you have had some good stuff from the other girls.

Hello anj.

Feeling so lazy today...DS and I still in Pjs. I promise I'll dress him soon!

Had GP check yesterday and all looked good. Feel guilty saying that when some of you are having such problems. You have my sympathies.

No further advice re your meeting today Verso, I think Artichokes is spot on (as always). I hope you get some some constructive feedback from your meeting today and come out with a clearer idea of what you want to do. Also do think about your other options: you have qualifications, excellent experience and the motivation to take on a more challenging role. If your current company can't see that then maybe it't time to look elsewhere.

I'm also a fatalist believer in things working out in the end (blame my Calvinist upbringing) provided that you work towards what you want. Who knows what opportunity might be around the corner? And ML might well give you the break you need to think about what you can do in the future.

Thanks, everyone, for all the eminently sensible advice. I know you're right - I currently manage four teams totalling 18 staff and was up for a promotion as head of three departments, totalling c.60, so I know a bit about how to approach difficult HR situations. (ie staying calm, documenting stuff and taking companions etc.) It's difficult to do when it's you though!

I have vented on here I know and have probably come across as extremely emotional - but I can assure you I can put on my veneer of professionalism when it is required .

Anyway, I will have a think whether there's anyone I can take into the meeting with me. It's a bit short notice but it had occurred to me as well. Although I want my points answered, I don't want to appear too confrontational though... hmm.

I am drafting a list of points this morning to take with me - and will definitely email back a summary.

katie the way you were treated sounds awful, and I'm sorry you went through that. However, I already have one daughter, and KNOW that I want and need to work. It's just who I am. The need part is partly for myself but also for my family, because my husband is disabled with a chronic condition and his mobility and speech are steadily declining. In time he will have to give up work completely. I am currently the main earner in our household anyway - and that has to continue.

Everyone's situation is different - and I know lots of women who have found their priorities shifted once they had children, which is absolutely fine. I'm just saying that isn't for me - and I already know that.

Verso, I'm the same: I def want to return to work after DC2. In many ways it's easier because I know work will continue to be a priority for me - I love my job and I would go potty at home. Luckily DH is fully supportive and happy to work round childcare as well.

Verso- as a manager you should also know that the way they score for interviews means they should be able to prove why you came below the mark (or not as is definitely the case). You can actually take someone from HR with you. You may think they are working for your company (which they are) but they also have to be professional and are in fact there for you. Not sure what your HR dept is like.

It's true that priorities change after kids but i think your situation is different and also whatever our priorities become we still have to fight discrimination and also change this culture of childbearing aged women being seen as a liability rather than recognised as the rich resource we are. While i am more than happy to be a SAHM i have 13 years experience as a Peadiatric nurse and 4 years of that was in senior management with the NHS while i was happy to turn my back on it all (who wouldn't) it annoys me that i have all this knowledge but no one wants it because i cant do the hours they want.

Yes - you're right, Veggie. I will ask for a copy of the interview pro forma and competency matrix and mine and the 'successful' candidate's scores. I am currently compiling a comprehensive list - it's handy that I have an NCT class this morning so am working from home .

Hello anj

Verso best of luck for the meeting, sounds like you are a force to be reckoned with

My MW is retiring She is an amazing MW and I'm quite upset that I won't have her any more. Met the new MW yesterday, she seems lovely. Baby is head down and behaving so all good. I'll have the home visit in the next couple of weeks, need to sort out pool logistics and we'll be all done.

Can't believe how time is passing....32 weeks-ish, how did that happen?

YAY!!

I've ordered my Phil and Teds!!!!! I'm so excited!!!

I'm 33 weeks today!! Just 7 weeks to go!!

Sorry to hear about your midwife Indith.

Which P&T did you go for Kay?

A good friend of mine, who is due with DC2 on 30 November, has just found out the head is engaged and she is already 2cm dilated with no pain. The midwife has written "labour immininent" on her notes . Her pregnancy is only 12 days ahead of mine. I can't beleive how close this is all getting. Last night I had really bad period cramps and started to wonder if this was it but they have gone now.

I am not ready girls! I have no pram, the baby's room is still a bomb site. I have not got it any clothes (or searched out DD1's clothes). I AM NOT READY AND ITS ALL GETTING SCARILY CLOSE!!!!

Right, I have a meeting in 7 mins, need to get clam and breathe.

atri: you know you don't need much, so calm down . Do an online shop this evening for emergency tiny baby bits and leave the rest till after the baby is here.

Didn't want to make you cry Verso! Best of luck for this afternoon. Am sure you will handle perfectly - what's MNet for if you can't have an emotional rant.

Also starting to slightly panic about not being ready at all. Apart from have done loads of Christmas shopping (all online as am too lazy to go to shops). MW asked me if I'd got my hospital bag sorted the other day. Had completely forgotten about doing this - and that I have to find a slightly less skanky dressing gown for wearing in front of visitors...

lal: I'm planning a raid on Primark for cheapo nighties and massive pants.

Am seriously considering a pair of these for 'smarter' and comfy pjs:

www.marksandspencer.com/gp/product/B001IMXNVC/sr=1-32/qid=1224844576/ref=sr_1_32/276-1086660-9067519 ?ie=UTF8&node=&m=A2BO0OYVBKIQJM&keywords=pyjamas&mnSBrand=core&size=9&rh=n%3A42966030%2Ck%3Apyjamas% 2Cn%3A43371030&page=4

and what about this for a dressing gown?

www.marksandspencer.com/gp/product/B000TMQ4LS/sr=1-57/qid=1224844820/ref=sr_1_57/276-1086660-9067519 ?ie=UTF8&node=&m=A2BO0OYVBKIQJM&keywords=&mnSBrand=core&size=9&rh=n%3A43314030&page=7