November 2012 - arrivals are now underway

[StuntNun]

Previous ante-natal thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/antenatal_clubs/1573396-November-2012-counting-down-the-weeks

New post-natal thread for the graduates: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/postnatal_clubs/1579907-November-2012-babies-are-here-at-last

Thanks everyone for ur advice . Turns out, went to gp and they didn't have their delivery . So buys me more time to research. It's just such a hard decision . I'm more inclined to take it but the dh is more concerned with the not known affects on a unborn baby. Hmmm.... Either way, no one can give a definitive 'this is the right thing to do' one way or the other and the responsibility ultimate lies with us .... This is stressy!!!

Horsey I'm the same - am keeping going as long as I can (and like you am convinced it'll be a late first baby), though more of my work will be done at home I reckon. I'm only two days a week in the office now but could reduce to one day or even no days a week being physically in the office (or only there for meetings) - my client is so lovely, am very lucky to be working for them when preggers (when I think of previous nightmare clients). Would go feral if I were just sitting on the sofa or bankrupt us on Ebay

candy tell him about the known risk of death if baby gets WC. Bit blunt, but sometimes blunt is needed.

pass I wish I could have my living room covered in baby stuff, but with a 2yo, it would not stay in neat piles. I have been trying to sort the nursery again today. It is like one of those puzzles with just the one square missing, so you need to shift everything around a dozen times to finish. DD2 is playing nicely in her sisters bedroom so is letting me get on, which is very good of her.

candy Remember our babies are fully developed now and the vaccination is exactly the same one they will be given at 8 weeks anyway.

How annoying candy that they didn't even have it! I'm having similar doubts over whether or not to have it (also fuelled by a worrying dh!). It's not a live virus so in essence it should only be antibodies that are passed onto junior from us, however the reason they don't give the vaccine to babies under 8 weeks is because their bodies can't handle the extra antibodies. If we were immunised as children ourselves then they will already recieve some protection. Interestingly (and it would seem which paper you read for the exact number as I've read anything from 5 to 19) all the babies who have died from wc this year were born to parents who were not immunised as chileren. There have also been no deaths and no significant increase of serious cases in scotland this year. I'm very sceptical of a mass publicity scare broadcast and sudden announcement that all pregnant women must have the vaccine when it's widely documented that babies younger than 8 weeks cannot cope with the strain of additional antibodies. (I'm also very sceptical of any sudden 'new medical interventions' in pregnancy - just think thalidomide...)

This is just my opinion. I am still undecided on whether or not to have it, and as I'm only 32 weeks and my surgery are useless I want another week or two to do my own research before making any decisions!

Candy I'm v cross with your NCT lady - she's really not thought the whole issue through - I mean, how can they test a vaccine on pregnant women and their babies? You're not going to find any research saying that this has been done and has concluded the jags are safe. Think about it - what pregnant woman would sign up to take part in such a medical trial? Nothing is able to be tested on preggo ladies and babies, where there is any serious potential risk - it is just not feasible. It's also entirely unethical but then in the 50s and 60s they used to test foetal risk from jags and other medicines on women in the third world, or incarcerated in Chinese prisons, and their babies... thank god we don't do that anymore.

I'm comfy (as a scientist) in taking the jag given that my wee one would be considered safe to have it from as young as 8 weeks old. There is very little physiological difference between an 8 weeker and a baby just a few weeks from birth. If it were very early in pregnancy i.e. the first trimester when there are massive physiological developments going on - I wouldn't touch any injection with someone elses.

It's very much horses for courses but for me the choice (and I'm a total paranoid and also a bit of a hippy - so do normally agree with the NCT on lots of things) was pretty clear having seen babies with WH in the NICU when my niece was there. It is a horrible and very fatal condition in the very young.

Candy I think it's a personal decision. We spoke about it, and decided to go for it. If it offers the baby instant protection at birth and so I will have it.

I keep having twitching etc above my eyes. Very odd?!

Last week I was having a tantrum over something, can't remember what but at the time it was a big deal so I brought a pink lining bag even though I was adamant that I would not spend that amount of money on a changing bag then regretted it and now its arrived I love it but seems im the only person that's excited about it

Hahaha nervous - I bought a carseat on dhs credit card (amongst some expensive unessential other things) last time i was in a major (by major I mean worse than my usual unreasonable door slamming outbursts when I don't get my own way) strops. Wish I'd thought to buy the pink lining changing bag I wanted too!

Hmm don't know why I wrote WH rather than WC there!!!

MM1 it's v personal, but I'd rather that junior faced the additional antibody burden in the womb than in the early weeks of their life on the outside - as they are much less vulnerable in utero than in the early days and my body can, to some degree, protect them and filter what they receive through the placenta. Once on the outside - I can't do anything to help in that way, and if they are born with breathing difficulties or other issues - problems feeding, whatever (which would really compromise their ability to cope with a jag or god forbid, WC itself), I would be really beating myself up for not taking this chance.

The clincher for me, was that we are expecting to have lots of visitors from all around the UK - all of whom could bring it with them even though there are no local cases on the islands. I'm not an epidemiologist - but I know that just because there are no local cases now - means nothing in terms of local conditions in November, by which time it would be too late to change my mind.

DH and my sister are both trained biologists - we've discussed it and I trust their reading of scientific papers in a topic area outside my expertise, better than my paranoia. (I am instinctively quite anti jag).

I've been having a peak at due in oct thread, quite exciting for those ladies!

MM it's not that babies under 8 weeks can't cope with the antibodies, it's that 8 weeks is the optimum time between the natural decline in the antibodies the baby has received from the mother and the development of the immune system to provide the most effective response to the vaccine. It would be perfectly possible to vaccinate on the day of birth, indeed worldwide the BCG is usually given at birth. But I think even the most pro-vaccine crowd would resist vaccinating their babies at birth and the risks of side effects would be greatly increased plus the vaccine is untested in newborns. The vaccine you will receive is given into the muscle as far as I know so there will not be circulating inactived virus in your bloodstream. All the baby will receive is the IgG antibodies that you produce in reaction to the vaccine.

MM (this is not abuse btw) I disagree with the comment about baby under 8 weeks being able to cope with additional antibodies, as they receive these from mummy. They could not cope with the vaccine and would not be able to cope with making their own antibodies, which is very different. I have read it the DOH documents that the mothers immunisation as a child is not likely to offer any protection to her baby, or indeed her, as it wears off in aprox 5 years. Interesting about the deaths being only amongst those mothers who had not been vaccinated. It is also not a new think in pregnancy. They have been vaccinating in America and other countries for many years, although with a different jag as the only one we can access at the moment is the one with 4 jabs in. Unfortunately there is no guarantee this will protect your baby, but it will protect you, and I would rather regret trying, than choosing to go against current medical advice.

The bit about babies under 8 weeks not being able to cope with excess antibodies is what we were told by my midwife and gp. I am definitely leaning towards having it as I know I could never forgive myself if I didn't and my baby was ill with wc. The inner control freak cynic in me just wants to know all the facts first so I can make a balanced decision. If I was later on in pregnancy (36+ weeks) where it was imperitive I had it right now for it to have any benefit then I probably would. The fact I have a week or two to dither is just giving me time to do enough background research so I am 100% happy with my decision.

On an off topic note I'm taking a day off from obsessive cleaning nesting and going to attempt to make marshmallow fudge. Whilst avoiding eBay at all costs!

Aye I think from reading that 'babies under 8 weeks can't cope with the antibodies' isn't an accurate synopsis of the science / reasoning. I've tried to read a few peer reviewed papers on the topic, but without a biological / immunological training - I know that I'm not going to grasp the nuances of everything in them as scientific discourse can be so fecking obtuse. Hence relying on my friendly family biologists!!! Both of whom have a vested interest in my bellydweller's health :)

IHeart I agree it does sound rude. I have been known to use it in a rude context before
MM1 You?ve made me feel better (sorry). Hopefully we wont be waiting a lot longer than everyone else. My GP surgery are also useless and so I?ll have to wait a bit longer for the WC jab.

Our builder friend has been and checked out our bedroom window (it?s been leaking when the rain hits the front of the house, resulting in mouldy window frames). The brickwork above needs some pointing so that should be done this week so that?s something I can tick off the ?before the baby comes? list. After that?s done we?re going to clean, strip, treat and repaint the window frames and our bedroom should look prettu and non-mouldy

Now here?s where I need you to step in and approve my decision Today I was planning on doing a deep clean of the bedroom, we have built in wardrobes and drawers that collect a lot of dust. However, if we?re going to be stripping the windows and making more mess next week, there?s no point in me doing a deep clean this week is there? Please tell me I?m being logical and sensible instead of lazy!

Planning on having a quick clean of the attic room for our friends staying over this weekend so I?m not going to sit on my arse all day (apart from now where I?m sat with a brew and some fruit and nut)

Candy What VQ said, she always says what I mean but in a much more intelligent way I'm pretty disgusted at this stupid ignorant teacher though I would have asked her exactly what her medical qualifications were to voice such an opinion. It's a very dangerous and VERY stupid thing to do and I would have reported her!

Your baby is fully developed and if you choose to immunise then your baby will have this at 8 weeks anyway. It is YOU who is receiving the immunisation, not your unborn baby and therefore it's YOU passing on YOUR antibodies, not the baby making its own. If you catch a cold, come into contact with any kind of illness etc. you will pass your antibodies on in exactly the same way. I'm going to have a read about the under 8 weekers immunity now because that is something I've never heard of before, don't they immunise at birth in other parts of the world?

Pregnant women are not usually included in clinical trials, saying 'it's not been tested on pregnant women' is an age old argument that lazy people with second hand opinions use. (I'm really angry now).

Have a good read and research for both sides ie. getting the whooping cough vaccine and possible side effects, stats etc. and what could happen to a newborn if it caught it.

And I'm defo not flame throwing, just a throwing in some things to ponder on.

Pass I've been waking up with sweaty knickers (OMFG!) and sweaty legs in the middle of the night. I never usually sweat :) Sounds like your boobs are off now, after I give birth I leak in bed that much it's funny. The first time I did it both me and hubby were absolutely covered from head to toe in milk, I thought it was really funny, hubby looked like someone had given him a lobotomy in the night, he really didn't know what was going on

VQ How to kill babies! I shouldn't, but I laughed my head off at that (and still am), what is going through their little brains?

I did a really loud fanny fart in bed last night after baba was playing 'screwdriver' with it's head in my pelvis. Hope it doesn't start that game, because 2 can play 'who's going to be more embarrassed', except I can bide my time by years and years of photos

Yw you've done the same as me lol!! Make sense as a physicist but they've been wanting to vaccinate for 18months.

See what you find mm but I don't think it's as much of a rushed job as people are making it out to be. I know I read something ages ago about it. It was just waiting for approval. However, if in doubt, think about it. It's only a decision you can make'n

Frig, I've crossed posted with about 20 posts now, it was only up to MM's when I started typing!

The babies that died were from mothers who had not been vaccinated? Well that puts it in a different light. I'll still get it if its offered.

Fatima sounds like a job for the feather duster in the loft, it can be done in minutes

I've also received a cheque from HM rev for £23. Should I offset it against the bill for £123 I got last week :)

MM I am puzzled by the excess antibodies, and look forward to hearing what you find out. You are totally right about having the benefit of time to research. I am no scientist.

fatima no point deep cleaning, indeed a day of rest is more appropriate.

shelly

We are half way through this thread already!