DECEMBER 2011 the final countdown (in honour of OI)

[kri5ty]

Sorry for the new thread and crap name but i needed to start one oi how are you doing good luck xxx

I have fallen off the face of MN for a week or so and have loadsss to catch up on! I have been busy doing coursework and seriously nesting!!

PGP is awful, to the point of making me cry, finally got a pyshio app, but not for another 2 weeks :( doesnt seem much point. OH continues not to even attempt a massage if i ask and rolls his eyes.

Been having really bad shooting pains that take my breath away, but seems as though baby is head down (and very low) im guessing its a nerve he is on.

Very strange and TMI... but earlier (when i went to the toilet) i could feel what felt like the head bulging on the outside, through my lady garden lol... freaked me out!!

Good luck oi !! Fingers crossed

tye glad you took the sick advice!!

I will try to avoid buying formula this time, but was advised on day 2 by mw last time to top up with formula as even after she effectively 'milked' me, she said there wasn't really sufficient (far less than a ml) and DD wouldn't latch. I would latch DD (or attempt to) for about 30 mins plus try to express prior to giving formula via syringe - in no way was it easier to just give formula - having to heat and sterilise the syringes in the middle of the night! Also its very difficult to get a baby to feed from a syringe, so perhaps avoid bottles if you want to avoid temptation. Luckily by day 6 was EBF until DD was 5 months old, and then combination fed till she was 10mo.

Oh meant to add - offer of the day at M&S is 25% off all newborn and babywear - and I got a 30% off gap voucher (including maternity and baby stuff) which I think I can pass on to 5 people if anyone wants to PM me their email address.

Can I ask when BFing is it still bloody agonising painful when your milk comes in? I started FFing before my milk came in last time due to DS's poor suck-reflex/lack of BFing support. I remember spending ages standing under a boiling hot shower with the water on my breasts as it was the only thing that stopped it being painful.

msbuggy if DD also has a poor suck reflex is the answer just to syringe/cup feed and keep trying on the breast until she gets the hang of it, and if so if I'm insistent enough will they let me go home anyway? I wish I hadn't given up last time but did so after 3 days in hospital with no improvement and being told I couldn't go home until I was 'capable' of feeding him.

pippy I do try to balance not scaring women about how hard it can be (DD1 was fed my expressed milk for 3mths before I could get her to latch) with making sure I don't make it out to be easy for everyone (although Dd2 was very easy to feed!), it isn't easy though as that line is likely to be different for every woman! Formula is life saving in some circumstances, however there are HCPs who are too quick to advise top ups and then don't back it up with the information of how to boost supply and remove top ups after the medical need has passed.

I also wanted to add that not every woman will feel the sensation of milk letting down (feels tingly, some women feel it strongly, others not at all, there is a continuum!) or have the hard breasts that we associate with milk coming in. Having engorged breasts actually means a bit of over supply, or too long a gap between feeds so if breasts and baby happen to be working perfectly together the milk will switch from colostrum to mature milk without any discomfort.

bee expressing is not necessarily a good indication of how much milk is there, some women can exclusively breast feed quite happily but never manage to express mo than a few drops. The best indication of how much is going in is what is coming out! Obviously if you have a non-latching baby and struggle to express formula will become necessary, but it isn't always indicative of supply issues in itself.

seven I think I covered engorgement in the cross post! If your Dd has a poor sucking reflex then yes, keep going is the answer, combined with lots of skin to skin contact, and no other sucking stimuli (pacifiers as well as bottles and fingers). Unless there is a medical problem preventing them from learning to suck they will get there, DD1 took the longest I have ever heard of for a not very prem baby (she was born at 35 weeks) more usually it is a week or two to get to complete breast feeding.

On the way to feeding solely at the breast, using a supplemental nursing system (www.medelabreastfeedingus.com/products/breastfeeding-devices/51/supplemental-nursing-system-sns) or nipple shields can work really well for some babies.

As far as being discharged while syringe/cup feeding goes, yes hospitals can be reluctant to do this. What you need to do is blast them with information to prove that you do know what you are talking about - so mentioning how often you a going to express, hiring a hospital grade breast pump etc can may work. If not, you can sign yourself out against medical advice if you're happy to do so.

Thanks msbuggy that is interesting on the sensation stuff - maybe I was just expecting too much. I have a bit of a hang up about my breasts generally and I think I was probably expanding this issue (in my head) to my ability to produce milk. Didn't help that all my NCT friends were popping their little ones on left right and centre from the word go, without it appeared any effort needed at all, which added to my view that there was something clearly wrong with me/boobs/let down etc.

I completely understand the need for balance, and I am sure you do this very well. I know I get too touchy when it comes to what I can sometimes percieve as over optimistic views of BF, so apologies if I ofended, I didn't mean to.

I think you are spot on with lack of ongoing advise for how to stop the initial (very real) need to top up, in fact my personal experience of standard health professionals in this area (midwives and health visitors) was that they were useless. By the time I got some decent advice I think I had mentally given up and the advice was too late, so hopefully this time I will be more prepared for what to expect and ideas of things to try.

hey pippy this time you've got us lot to give you some moral support and geeing on if you want to give it a real go! where are you based? might it be worth investigating some bf advisers in your area before hand so that you've got access to someone on hand straight away. when i had a problem first time i called the la leche league who seem to provide advice free of charge and a bit of reassurance from a real mum who has done it (rather than a MW who wants your bed)

good luck this time x

sorry just reread that and wasn't implying that you didn't give it a real go first time around.

seven being a first timer I have no comment of the bfing side of things...I'll leave that to msbuggy but I am at hospital telling you that you couldn't go home until you were capable of feeding. You cannot be held against your will & I think it's disgusting that nhs staff would lead you to believe they had this kind of power. Obviously they want your LO to be feeding well before leaving hospital but from what I've heard not all women find it easy to bf in an alien environment I would expect them to offer home support if you expressed a desire to leave the hospital. I feel very :( that you had such a difficult experience with your DS.

Thanks hawthers I already feel more positive about trying again than I did when I first found out I was pregnant. I will definitely look into help pre-delivery (this is my last week at work so I have it on my list for a job to do before the baby comes while I am at home) as I think you have hit the nail on the head about getting advice/support lined up BEFORE the baby arrives.

pippy will be routing for you

Oh and seven I had a very similar experience in hospital after having DD. After being almost harrased to get packed up and go for most of the day (because they were busy), the last few hours were really stressful with DD screaming because she wanted a feed, but no matter how I tried she just screamed louder and louder. They offered no advice (I had one of my nipples helpfully squeezed by the MF and when a tiny molecule of milk came out was told I was producing fine), they all but refused to give me formula (I was getting depserate to calm her) and the head midwife shuffled up to my bed and said in a really nasty/sniffy tone "are you sure you should be going home when you clearly don't know what you are doing" which made my blood boil and I ended up leaving in a rage with DD screaming at top volume. So not the best of starts really.

pippy the workshop I went to a couple of weeks ago was run by a LC who started this group: www.naturesmothers.co.uk/

They seem to focus quite strongly on getting you up to speed before you give birth and offer either group or individual prenatal breastfeeding counselling, as well as postnatal support. I went with the women from the NCT group we're going to and it was fantastic.

I believe they have some affiliation with the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers as well - if you're not within the Nature's Mothers "catchment area" so to speak, I'm sure you'll be able to find something for antenatal support/advice there?

Pippy I honestly think DP would have to hold me back if MW spoke to me like that & I'd have to slap the hand of anyone who tried to squeeze my boob. A big part of the reason I wanted a home birth is stories like these...at least in my own home I can have the pleasure of telling them to get out

msbuggy yes I know nappies are a good tell tale sign, DD had that weird pinky stuff (even when on formula), she was just an awful feeder, and her dirty nappies were days behind the picture guidelines - it took till my milk came through for her feeding and nappies all to catch up.

I have to say, from the stories from others it seems that I was really lucky to get out of hospital within the day - I admit I don't think I would have managed to get away from formula if it hadn't been for super pushy DH and DM.

Thanks for the advice msbuggy.

pippy we'll both have much better experiences this time around!

I'm going to reiterate my advice about having some cartons in as I think it's good to have views from all sides so everyone can make their own minds up.

My experience first time round involved nearly ending up back in hospital and being told I had to top up (by HV who had not provided any help days earlier when the problems started). We didn't have formula in (having taken advice on here) were not near any shops that were open and I felt dreadful having to give it. I tried very hard to keep feeding, my DH put his foot down when DS rolled of my knee because I fell asleep, so I will be more open to mixed feeding this time.

Don't ge me wrong, I would love to bf excusively and look forward to asking Mrsbuggy's advice. Everything about frequent feeds, formula causing problems with supply etc is spot on, the problem is everyone has different experiences so it's hard to understand how demending you might find bfing. Seriously there are lots of things that make a good or bad mother and how you milk feed a baby isn't one of them!

Unfortunately when problems come up what is needed is face to face help from an expert which is not always available. I can't find the figures but I think the rates of new mums starting up breast feeding are quite high, but the rates still feeding excusively at 2 weeks are not so good.

OMG I am watching Extreme Home Makeover, making a house for a family with a little girl with cancer. And I am in pieces, there is snot on my sleeve and it's full-on ugly-cry over here. Thank god DH isn't here, he would be seriously worried...

Tyelperion, either people have been lying to your aunties, or they live next door to the Beckhams and their ilk... Thank goodness your father seems to have more interesting ideas in his head!

(HOneyLovesCake, did your mother realise it was you (her child) she said that to? You must have been horrified!)

LittleMissFlustered, you are being naughty to your buy-it friend!

By the way, with regard to Russian men, don't go for Putin: he's a terrible fake!

Glad to hear you're still hanging on, OiMissus - although you've probaby had enough of the constractions by now...?

INteresting idea about binding the belly - do you reckon my corset would suit? It is adjustable, after all

Speaking of binding, I am starting to feel as though my breasts have been bound - so-and-sos are getting bigger again! I asked my MW at the last appointment whether they checked for tongue tie at birth, and it seems there's a very complicated referral process if one is detected.... What the hell!?

Evening Ladies

Looking at you all talking about BFing. I want to express and end up mix feeding. the thought of baby latching on freaks me out! I know I shouldn't feel that way.
What I want to know is how do I go about giving the baby my colostrum (first milk) in a bottle without having baby latching on?

msbuggy will know better than me, but i read / hear it's v difficult to express colostrum. Firstly, there is so little of it -teaspoon-, but also it's designed to line your baby's tubes and tummy to protect him/her from the evils of the outside world - so it's very effective at lining the tube of whatever pump you try to use, and so won't be "collected".
I'm determined to exclusively breast feed, and am going to find out about support in my area in the next week. Will not be buying formula or bottles and sterilising kits just in case. If the worst happens and it doesn't work, for whatever reason, I have 24hr tescos etc all within easy reach . But am going back to work after 20 weeks, so will need to look into electric pumps and paraphernalia then.

darcies it is possible to express colostrum, but difficult. You might find it useful to begin expressing colostrum in your last couple of weeks of pregnancy to freeze and build up a store to see you through the first few days in case you find it very difficult, however this could affect your supply as babies are much more effective at removing milk. Colostrum needs to be hand expressed as such tiny amounts get 'lost' in pumps and it will be easier to feed it via syringe, we're only talking of between 1 and 5ml per feed for the first few days!

Sorry ladies, this is completely off-topic but I need to vent

DH got stuck on his way home tonight due to bloody trains. And it's his birthday. Bang go our (modest) plans for the evening - him being back in time to see DD before bed, and us getting a takeaway for dinner. He's now finally on the move, but evening is ruined :(

'lo!

I've been humming 'baby got back' all day after the sir mix a lot comments earlier. If we make it to a new thread I demand we title it "we've got big bumps and we cannot lie (down comfortably)" :o

I have a love hate relationship with feeding methods. I hate breast feeding and I hate formula and I would love to be able to get my head straight. Gah! Got to love mental health issues:(

Right. Day two of tea going wrong. I'm off to try to rescue something to eat.

LMF that made me smile...love the thread name suggestion