8week miscarriage isn't quite the same as delivering a full-term stillborn?

[Lira]

I'm really sorry for the upsetting nature of this post but i am heartbroken. Tomorrow is the third anniversary/birthday of my stillborn son who was born full term. I have phoned round my friends to ask if they are free to mark the occassion like we do every year. We go for lunch or something. We talk about him.

My friends have been quite evasive about it this year and finally one called this morning saying she thinks i should let it go. I can't keep letting this haunt me forever. She had a miscarriage at eight weeks a few years ago and i don't see her organising anniversary lunches etc. Her words.

I'm so sorry if this sounds cruel, but to me - yes, they are two horrible situations but not quite the same. Delivering a full term baby, and holding him, getting a photo of him etc is not on the same level as a eight week miscarriage. Just as i think someone losing a child - for example a baby to cot death - is again far worse than delivering a still born.

I understand that everyone has different emotional boundaries. So for some people, a miscarriage at 4 weeks could feel the same as someone losing a child to cot death.

Basically, i jusst feel quite embarrassed now and isolated. I want to celebrate Ethan's life no matter how short it was. But i've been made to feel it's insignificant. Am i being unreasonable thinking both of our children's deaths are terrible, but not quite on the same level?

Well said, twinkle.

My aunt lost two of her children. After Sylvie-Rose died, she wrote me a letter. She wrote "You never get over it but it does get easier to bear"
And it is thirty years since she lost one child and I think twenty-five years since she lost the other.

Thank you again.

Please don't think tomorrow i will be grieving. i have come to terms with his death but i still want to celebrate his birth each year. Tomorrow wasn't about sitting around and feeling sad. It was just to meet up with friends and talk about ethan for a while in a positive light. But they obviously think this is an odd thing to do.

How are you feeling about your friends Lira?

OP I am so sorry for your loss, and sorry for all the bereaved mothers here.

I never forget how easily it could have been me. I spent all day desperate to feel a movement. I lay in the delivery room and watched as the heart monitor slowed to nothing. I listened to the deafening silence as DS was born.

I am grateful every day to the consultant who took over the delivery and basically just pulled him out of me and to doctors who resuscitated him. That day was the longest day of my life.

I felt his loss for a few short minutes and it was indescribable. I can't even imagine your pain, I would feel honored to celebrate him with you in whatever way you choose.

Grief is such a personal thing, the loss of a child even more so as it's simply not natural, no parent should ever out-live their child, ever. No one gets to tell you to "let it go". Just reading that phrase has made me angry.

The very fact that you still get up every day and put one foot in front of the other takes courage no one can understand. I will be thinking of you and Ethan tomorrow.

(To the poster who mentioned that you stop "reliving the birth" at some point, I hope you realise how flippant that sounds. On DS's 1st birthday last month it dominated my thoughts all day even though I am blessed to still have my child.)

I would suggest to anyone who, like myself, is unable to imagine a bereaved parent's grief that they don't make helpful suggestions and stick to giving support and empathy in whichever way it is wanted.

I don't want to derail this thread but thought I should let you know that I have started this thread asking why it was moved.

The previous case was the birth story of a baby who died a few days after birth. The OP was distressed that it was moved without her request and against her wishes, as she rightly wanted to talk about the birth itself, not her grief.

Sorry if this is unhelpful here, but it is something that has really annoyed me about MN and I think many bereaved parents feel pushed into the bereavement section when they want discussion in an open forum.

X-Post OP.

Please don't hide to avoid "making people uncomfortable". Ethan is your son, you are his mother, you should mark his birthday in whatever way you want to.

I'm peeved this was moved without your consent or request as well as hellofred's thread about her child's birth and subsequent death.

I'm so sorry lira for your loss (Ethan is a wonderful name)
We lost one of our twin boys last year at 34 weeks and needed cs as we didn't know if we would lose his brother (thankfully we didn't). The comments and response from some friends and family have appalled me, such as "well at least you have N" (our son is not a consolation prize), and "just need to take your mind off it". Frankly it's that kind of shit and the never ending "youve got to keep it together for N" that's led me to have a breakdown.
I've never properly grieved for him, and resent the suggestion that somehow I should put him out of my mind and just carry on like he was never here. I think of him every day, and counselling has gone some way to helping me to learn to cope and be functional again. At the end of the day, he's my son just as much as his brother and I will be celebrating their 1st birthday for both of them in a few weeks. But it's going to be bloody hard, and any friend/family that can't cope with being supportive on that day can sod off

And this thread is still here, in Bereavement, despite the fact that the OP did not request its move.

I'm one of the people who suggested this should be moved. I have started and seen threads on AIBU which have turned bunfighty from apparently innocuous starts and I had (mistakenly apparently) worried this might go that way and I'm afraid I was concerned for Lira. Bunfighty threads when you feel vulnerable are scary and very unpleasant

I suggested chat, not because I think it should be hidden away but I thought a more reasonable debate could potentially happen on chat.

Sorry if this is de-railing, but I don't like that people's genuine concerns for the OP are being treated so angrily, if those of us who haven't been there get it wrong for those of you who have, help us to understand but don't be cross with us for 'not knowing' we are perhaps trying to understand something that is incomprehensible for us.

I really hope I haven't offended anyone (further) we've all seen those threads go hideously wrong on AIBU though and I certainly reacted to that. My apologies if anyone has been offended by any of my clumsy wording.

She did not request the move. IMO, it should be her call. She is not a new poster, I'm sure she's well aware what AIBU can be like.

I am so sorry for your loss Lira,it's very painful to be marginalised like that.
Big hugs for you for tomorrow....I shall be one of many on MN who shall think of you & Ethan tomorrow.People expect you to "move on" within 6 months in my experience.
I went through similar experiences to you in that most people can't cope with what you are going through....they just want you "back to normal".
When they see that it isn't just going to go away they sort of subtley withdraw....or come out with some pretty ignorant things like that misguided friend of yours.
I also think that some people are just down-right insensitive & dare I say a bit self-orientated.
Ipswich I went thru vv similar to you & received the same pearls of wisdom,you just can't believe that people can come out with such crap.
I eventually used to try to explain it like this:"If both your parents were in a car crash (heaven forbid) would you be content if yor father lived but you lost your mother?".....it was the closest analogy that people can relate to.
I was told when I lost my twin that I must be grateful that one survived.

I guess as a long standing poster she is aware of the pitfalls of AIBU, however, I do think the people who suggested a move, did it with only the best of intentions at the time

I respect what you are saying Liza and I believe that you had the Ops' best interest at heart.

But it wasn't really for anybody else to say move this thread, anybody including bereaved mothers. It was up to the OP.

Well, to be fair, I've been around a wee while too and am well aware of what AIBU is like and yet, in a high stress once I posted something very emotive in there that exploded on me and led to me being harassed on the thread and via PM it completely changed the way I post and use mumsnet.

I have to say normally when you report a thread/post (or have one reported) there is some discussion with HQ but I've not had any emails from them about this.

Oh my darling. 15 years ago our ds2 was born at 27 weeks and died a little while later in my arms. I have come to terms with it but I have never ever got over it. I wish Mnet had been around 15 years ago because actually no one could cope or help me beyond the odd platitude and as soon as dd was born (51 weeks later) the entire birth, death, funeral, son was brushed under the carpet. I still light a candle for him and go to the cemetary on anniversaries and when I feel I need to. In all of the last 15 years, mnet is the only place I can really talk about it; everyone else, including dh, expects me to have got over it and regard it as something that's in the past. There is another part of me that looks at dd and can look upon it as serenedipity and if it hadn't happened then I wouldn't have the most wonderful girl in the entire universe. (sorry not meant as a brag).

On the other hand, dd was my 5th pg (possible 7th or 8th if I count the early losses). I miscarried my other babies (boys) at 17 weeks and 11 weeks. The first at 17 weeks; I didn't allow myself to grieve for but stoically got on with it and it wasn't until ds1 was born that I realised what I had lost and then (for other reasons too) careered into six months of pnd; the next at 11 weeks I was heartbroken over and felt a complete failure.

I think it is one of the last taboos and although things are immeasurably more supportive nowadays I don't think many people understand the impact of any miscarriage or stillbirth and women are expected to deal with it with far too stiff an upper lip.

My ds2 was the real baby who had a funeral but it doesn't make my first or third pgs any less heartbreaking and I still think of the teenagers those boys might now be.

Mnet is the only place I can really talk about it and I think that's why I'm here really.

I'm sorry for your loss. And I'm sorry that your friends won't be there for You in the way that you'd like.

I've had mcs at 12 weeks and 8 weeks and been devastated by both. But I would never compare it to a still birth or the death of a living child. My friend has lost two pregnancies after 20 weeks (three babies - twins and a son) and I would never dream of equating my earlier losses with hers, even though I was heartbroken (and suffered depression). I can't imagine going through a still birth and I have the utmost respect for you for wanting to preserve, honour and celebrate your son with those who care about you. You shouldn't be expected to stop thinking of him or to sweep it under the carpet. Hugs.

I'm so sorry for your loss Lira

And sorry to hear that your friends were not better friends and more able to show some empathy.

If they'd been more mature they'd have all got back to you and all respectfully explained their own feelings about getting together for the anniversary (which might be different to each others) not just have one person speak to you and be pretty insensitive.

Agree with another poster that it's not about working out some hierarchy of tragedy or grief.
Everyone is different.

The only way forward is through respect and empathy all round.

I hope tomorrow brings some opportunities to remember Ethan in the good ways you hoped, and that you will have some good company in doing so, even if it is only us x

I decided to go through the thread after posting and ended up with a busy day, so sorry for delayed responses.

onceortwice

But, maybe it is time for a change.

3 years ago, I had a 1YO and a newborn. Now I have two children in school. Times change.

Seven years ago I was pregnant with my first baby, excited... Then two weeks-ish from now I went into labour. My baby was just too early to survive, despite that she survived birth and I held her for three hours whilst I watched her die. She should have started Y2 last week, but unlike your children, she isn't in school. She's in a hole in the ground. Appreciate your children, appreciate them growing up because we never will get to appreciate that. Our last memories of our precious children are of their cold dead bodies, of their funerals. When you walk your children down the aisle, remember we already did that, that it was the last thing we saw of our children and it wasn't the happy experience it should have been.

Lira I just read that back and also need to say that in spite of the hell that was losing a baby in the third trimester, life has been good. DS is nearly 18 and I have an adorable dd who is 14. They are both the lights of my life and I do look back sometimes and think that if what happened hadn't happened, then I wouldn't have exactly them. I cannot imagine a life without the children I was dealt - it would be better if there hadn't been the heartbreak but without it I wouldn't have the same children and the thought that is almost as painful as the grief we went through.

Life will get kinder and eventually all will feel well. I think your friends have been unkind but I don't think they don't know any better. 20th/21st century labour, birth, parenting has done little to prepare quite a few generations now to deal with the tragedy of losing a baby or an infant.

Good luck OP. Enjoy and cherish your dd and look forward to your dreams of easier times. Your next baby with never replace Ethan but you will truly cherish him or her.

So sorry for all here who have lost loved ones

Are you going to the September shindig meet-up marriedinwhite ?
I hope I might see you there if I've got that right ?
Your posts are both sad and wise I think. So sorry for your losses

Thank you all so much, all you brave mothers, for sharing your stories and memories of your precious angel babies.

I had two missed m/c's and while they were indeed heartbreaking they were not so much so as the death of our little girl.

It's not a heirarchy, but losing an angel baby or child is so devestating.

Confused put it so well.

Married, you are very courageous to share your story of your son with us. Thank you for that and he has people now, real people, who will remember him along with their own children.

Lira, death is taboo for many, again, I always found it rather silly because a) it's not contagious and b) it will happen to all of us.

We had some preparation because there is still also a huge taboo surrounding cancer in childhood, hence, paediatric hospitals with no signposting for the onco units because 'people might find it upsetting'.

Yep - am going - I'll be in crepey corner . I'll be the bright smiley one.

Is that the corner for eating crepes < yum >

or for making paper hats out of crepe paper ?

or for something else ?

In any case, I'll see you there !

< waves to expat - PM me your email details to pass on to the Glasgow MP about the playroom if you'd like me to ? >