In memory of my beloved Fraser and all our children.Little buds sown on earth to bloom in heaven

[frasersmummy]

A new haven for us all to say exactly what is in our heart or on our minds knowing that everyone understands and wont judge

You dont get rid of me that easy girls LOL - Tom is taking his laptop and I WILL BE BACK - bet I dont last till week-end without coming on here!!! I have butterflies in my stomach now - taxi is coming at 5am - and you know how great I am at sleeping

Better try to get some sleep....speak soon my dear friends...take care of yourselves and I have no doubt I will be on here tomorrow night LOL xxxxxxx

Hi everyone, I've had half a bottle of red wine so excuse my typos!

Thanks for all your kind messages, today went well although tough at times.

The hospital appointment went well, our consultamt is so lovely, kind and sensitive i just want to hug her! The full amnio results didnt show any chromosonal abnormalities and the postmortem results didnt show anything other than slighlty enlarged kidneys and slight dysmorphic facial features. However, there could be a chance of it still being something gentic with a very low chance of this happening again. Our consultant said we can speak to the geneticist although this still mightn't give us an answer. they would look at family history etc, at this point DH looked at me - I know very little about my father's family

So, I spoke to my mum ( who never speaks about him ).... I have 4 half brothers one of whom died of a cot death when he was a few weeks old. What if this poor baby had something the same as Malachy? I'm so confused, i have a half brother called David who is 28/29, another who is about 27 who was a twin but his brother died and another who is about 25! My mum doesn't know their first names but she said she would contact my dad's brother if i Wanted her to.

I don't really know what to do. The consultant said she didnt think it was necessary to contact the geneticist before trying again as its so unlikely to happen again and she said if she thought it would happen again she would have advised against getting pregnant until we had seen him. Does that make sense?

Anyway, its been the strangest day for so many reasons, but its weird to think of my dad out there (who I have never met) who has lost a baby just like me. It wouldnt be hard to contact my father, i guess I should really, he's one of the few people in rl who would know how I'm feelimg.

Shabs Hope you have a great holiday, you deserve to, you have been such a support to me.

We took a plant to Malachy's grave and DH planted some more in the garden, he's never shown an interest in gardening before but since Malcahy has died he has planted lots of flowers and tended to them religously.

PPM - thinking of you tomorrow xx

FM - well done for todayxx
The poem you posted was very touching and summed up how I'm feeling so well.

Oh my word Mini - I was told, after Gareth died, that his heart problems were not hereditry - he said they were just a 'accident at conception' just something that happened. He re-assured me that he thought the chances of that happening again were very slim. I still had a cardiologist look at Matts and Toms hearts after they were born.

The part about your Father having lost a child is a little mind blowing isin't it? It makes you think and wonder how he dealt with it.

Im glad you got some answers and had things explained to you.

Have you noticed I haven't gone to bed yet

Right....turn off the computer, turn off the computer, turn off the computer xxx

Thanks Shabs, its all a bit too much tbh. Ive been looking on facebook all night but not much luck.

Yes, you need to get off to bed! Have a fab time and speak soon xxxx

Mini - what a day for you... To find about half siblings and your father going through the same loss as you - like Shab said, mindblowing... It must be so difficult to know whether to make contact or not. How would feel about having him in your life now? I wonder given his simular experiences whether you would find him a support at all? But I guess given the length of time there would be a whole load of other issues to sort through with him too.... I'm glad your day went well though and hope the consultant has given you hope that you will have a successful pregnancy next time...

I hope our consultant appointment Thursday goes as well...

I've been trying to think of questions to ask consultant, I know a lot will depend on what they tell us from our blood/placenta but so far I've got:

• Was prem labour really a prem labour or was it a warning sign of Belle becoming unwell or distressed? *Was there anything that should've been picked up in scan week before and wasn't?
• Should Jon's blood be tested too?
• Could Belle have inherited Jon's thick blood and her heart not coped with it, or thick blood cause a clotting disorder?
• Could we be treated for the possibility of thick blood next time to prevent any further problems?
• Anything else that can be done to prevent this happening again?
• Is the infection I had a possible cause, or did that develop after Belle's death?
• Can I have a copy of my file?
• What will the exact management plan be next time? e.g. scans, heart monitoring, length of pregnancy, early induction/CS? *Are we able to ring and make a further appointment with you if we feel we need one of have further questions?

Is there anything else you think would be a good or relevant question from reading our story?? Any suggestions welcome...

For a bit more history regarding blood clot questions, DH was v ill after our honeymoon after developing DVT on way out and a big clot breaking down and travelling to his lungs. Had about 5 clots in his lungs in the end, was v lucky to get home alive. Was in hospital for 2 weeks on our return and spent the next 6 months on warfin. We've since discovered he has thicker than normal blood which accounts for the clots...

Also when I was admitted to hospital to be induced my blood test showed my CRP levels (I think thats the right ones) were over 100 and should be under 10 and started being treated for infection with an IV antibiotic drip. I don't know whether this is a factor or whether it developed after she died...

Wanted to also send hugs to FM and PPM

Shabs - enjoy your holiday. We'll miss you.

Hiya Mini - blimey you must be shattered with all that info in one day... i hope you get some sleep tonight x and thanks for your kind thoughts for tomorrow... think i'm gonna be up for a while ... am soooo not tired!!

Caz - yeah it's been a bit of a rollercoaster! Not sure about meeting my father but want to know if there is potentially anything hereditary. We were told by our consultant that we would be under her from the word go if I get pregnant again. I know different authorities have different systems but I would imagine that you would be closely watched. All my blood and viral tests came back negative, I suppose I might never know why Malachy died.

I hope your appointment on Thursday gies well, unfortunately in most cases I don't think there is a definite reason. The main concern from the scans was malachy's heart but the postmortem didn't show any structural problems so again no concrete answer.

Ppm- I'm shattered but my mind is racing so not ready for bed yet. Might have a herbal tea and try to wind down.

I know what you mean about wanting to rule out anything hereditory... my dh lost a brother (as an infant) to cot death and for many months after gregor died we believed he had died from cot death and worried that there was a genetic link but the post mortem results showed it had been an overwhelming virus. I know from my experience that just because someone has a shared experience of losing a child it doesn't always mean they will be a good support iykwim? Is there any way your mum or another relative or friend could ask any questions of your father and family on your behalf to save you any extra stress at the moment?

Am also shattered and must try to go to bed and sleep as it will be morning all too soon night night xx

Morning folks x

morning ladies x

caz I am sure if you write down all your questions they will be answered. If you forget something phone your consultant's secretary and ask to speak to him I have done this in the past. take care xx

mini What a day that was for you, well done for getting through it. Just take one step at a time so that you are not overwhelmed with it all. try to have a quiet day today xx

ppm hope you have a peaceful day today. Your little boy sounds amazing. xx

Morning all xx

Sorry - I think this sounds a bit bleak (bad dreams last night)... but wanted someone sensible to tell me if I am being hysterical - skeamish people should read no further!!

Since Catherine died, opt quoted conventional wisdom from well-meaning individuals is that having another baby would be a positive thing. But is this really the case?

The risk of not delivering a live baby sounds pretty big to me. Suppose you manage to get pg, and get to 24 weeks, your chance of a neonatal death is 1 in 200. OK, 199 are not dead (not necessarily healthy, but not dead), but 1 in 200 seem a huge risk, compared say with the chance of Catherine dying of a common childhood illness.

It just seem to me that having another baby makes it not beyond on the realms of possibility that I will be the mother of 2 dead children.

But if s/he is fine, it seems then her whole life will be tinged with sadness, as I take her to school without her older sibling - play the same games that Catherine can no longer play and so on... Maybe it would just be easier to do something altogether diffferent.

And that's assuming nothing happens to him/her as a child too. I know this is less likely than a neonatal death - but I know how intensely bonded I was with Catherine when I knew her and loved her, and so this seems just as risky, because it would be even more awful. So unlikely, but a long lingering illness would be just horrible - how do you tell your 4 year old they have cancer or they are going to die?

But actually what scares me most in a way, in what I've come to think of as worst possible scenario - partly because once children get to 15 or so, it starts to become actually quite likely, and partly because of the horror. Because when they get to 15, children start to die in larger numbers again, particuarly from drink, drugs, car accidents and suicide. So imagine you get to 15, and they suddenly develop mental health problems - they're depressed or anorexic - and then they hang themselves in their bedroom? How awful would that be?

I've been wading through books my bereaved parents - not many seem to be written by mums who go on to have other children - possibly because they are too busy being a mum.. Maybe they recover better.

I do know of one mum who point blank refused to risk having more (her DH wanted them desperately).

Am I being completely hysterical? Of course, I was facing all these risks when I had Catherine - and never gave them a second thought really.

But now it has happened to me - I'm not sure the feel same way about it.

PPM Thinking of you today xx

Thanks ladies, I've dropped ds1 off made it home and am now in a hysterical lonely puddle of tears. Just seeing all the excited other mummies was just too much to bear. Ds1 was absolutely fine which i knew he would be as i try to so hard to make sure he doesn't sense my anxiety.

sassy - it would be most unusual if you did feel the same about it now. do you remember when my dh was in hosp recently for a minor op and i'd convinced myself he was going to die? Well I totally get where you're coming from - I believe that our perceptions of risk have changed soooo much as the worst possible thing has already happened to us so that the door is now open for anything else ... Ask yourself this... in 5-10 years time do you think you'll look back with regret if you don't give yourself the chance to have another child? I know the two tiny years I had with gregor and the joy and happiness and memories he brought me is worth any amount of pain and grief i have to now bear - i wouldn't have changed that for anything. i hope this makes sense? you're not hysterical, you're a normal grieving mummy. I'd love to be able to conceive again but right now my coping strategy is to not think beyond the little blue line as i have enough real stuff to cope with in the here and now iykwim... If it happens then i'll do what i usually do and cope with it... i remember someone saying to me 'oh knowing you're luck you'll conceive twins' my answer: 'well if that's the worst thing life's got in store for my future i'd grab that with both hands and run' !!!

Sassy - I personally don't understand the people who say things to me like, "well you can have another baby" - like a new baby will fix everything. Of course it won't fix anything, but a new life can only ever be a good thing in their own right and way.

Everything you've said makes perfect sense to me. I have some of these thoughts - that bringing up a little person now would be tinged with sadness, always looking at them and thinking "What would Belle have been like" - first steps, first words, first day at school etc etc. To be honest I haven't thought beyond the toddler years, and I've not thought of the risks beyond pregnancy - but your thoughts are so normal, because previous experience dictate our fears.

But I know we will try for a new baby one day, and then just hope and pray and put all our faith in the health professionals to deliver me a live healthy baby... I so desperately want to experience more than pregnancy one day. Being a Mummy is the job I've wanted to do above all others since me and Jon moved in together (3 1/2 years ago), but we waited until we were married, because that is the way we wanted things.

I think ppm advice is good? What would you look back on regret, trying or not trying? But at the end of the day, regardless of what others ask or comment to you it is your business and yours alone.

We've had the TTC conversation a couple of weeks ago and so far we've agreed I'll stay on the pill and see how we feel at Christmas. Try and see 2011 as a new year, new start, new baby? DH has said the best 30th birthday (March) present he can think of is me telling him we're expecting again, this is of course assuming a)I'm actually brave enough to come off the pill at Christmas, b) If he actually feels ready for all that too, and c) I catch quickly like last time.

Its all just very scary isn't it.

I think one of the advantages you have Caz is that time is very much on your side. I know you probably don't feel very lucky at the moment (quite naturally!), but you have another decade of fertile low risk (yes, I know - oh, the irony!) years ahead of you to get pregnant. You also have the advantage that you know that you can conceive, and given that was recently, I suppose there is good chance you'll conceive easily again. I know that doesn't take away the pain of losing Belle - but I suppose there are just less things to worry about.

I think I am finding it all a bit over-whelming. We don't really have time to think about ttc or not - so it just feels like emotionally we're dealing with everything at once. I do totally get what you're saying PPM, in that I couldn't regret a moment of my daughter, and also that it is hard to think beyond actually conceiving - because it is quite possible that we might not.

I know I sound a bit of a confused old biddy- I suppose it comes down to this. I want my daughter back, and would happily trade my soul - but no one is offering a deal on this. So, I would very much like a blue line - but I would also like someone to promise me that nothing really bad will ever go wrong in my life ever again - because I have had quite enough shit thank you very much. But I know no one can even promise the blue line - let alone the next bit - so I feel a tad hysterical - even though this is probably normal.

Thinking of you today PPM. Catherine should have started morning preschool tomorrow. It is shit. xx

Sorry Caz - I shouldn't have said there less things to worry about - I really meant different things

ppm.. glad ds1 was ok .. well done for holding up for him.. thats a big achievement

Sassy ..having another child was a no brainer for me. I had waited 9 months and had nothing to show for it. The sense of "I want a baby" was overhwelming.

You are in a completerly different place. I think having done so much with Catherine starting with a new baby would be soo much harder

I think you need to be sure that you wont resent the new baby as they "are not catherine" and that "you shouldnt need to be changing nappies again"

As for the risk factor of something happening...at the risk of sounding callous ...you cant live your life in fear

I know that sounds horrid.. its normal for a bereaved mum to be more scared than others.. especially those of you who have known your child .. but what I mean is you need to decide if you will regret not having a second child more than having them and worrying about them all the time

This is bit incoherent.. hope you can make sense of it

Tears are still flowing... just spotted a facebook pic of two of gregor's wee pals all set for nursery - am going to close my facebook acct as this is just tooo painful. my true friends don't need facebook to keep in touch with me. i don't grudge his wee pals and their families their excitement and happiness but it's just too painful to see what could have been. have got an hour and a half to get myself together and get ready for braving the playground again - i just didn't expect it to be as painful today as i thought id made such positive progress over the holidays. ds1's got a swimming lesson after school which i think is a good thing - i just need to get out of this village for an hour or so....

{{{PPM}}} Well done for getting through this morning. I was thinking of you all this morning.

sassy - I'm writing this in a hurry so apologies if it's garbled.

I think you can over analyse any scenario or situation, but sometimes you have to give yourself a kick and a stern talking to to get things back into perspective. However, being what we've all been through, our perspective changes and our view of pretty much everything also changes.

You can read statistics until the end of time, however statistics can be manipulated and they are also figues on a page, they don't take into account emotions or feelings.

We can live our lives forever thinking 'but what it?', but that's no way to live a life is it? Constantly questioning everything and second guessing yourself - it would drive a person insane and it's so very tiring.

Forget statistics and fertility issues etc etc. Would you like another child?

I fell pregnant with M about a month after C died, and although I had a few wobbles about was I doing the right thing?, I knew that I wanted another baby and that I wanted to feel like a family again. I was a mum, but without a child and there was a huge gaping hole that needed filling.

Although my pregnancy with M was emotional, as soon as he was born everything seemed to fall into place again. My maternal feelings at last had a focus again. I still missed C like a huge ache, but I started to feel whole again. I felt I had a purpose.

Just seen your last post PPM.

It's horrible isn't it? I think you're probably doing the right thing with FB. It can just get too much.

It can feel like one step forward and one step back, but you will get there xxx

I've had enough now - just want to go to my bed!!!!!!!!!!!! came close to wanting to punch a couple of mum's this morning in the playground (which is really not like me) so must concentrate on nice calm thoughts ... and breathe!!!

Sassy - I don't think you are being hysterical or bleak, I think you have been through the most horrendous time and the thought of going through it again is terrifying and overwhelming. I know that we will try again, dh is very keen, I probably need a bit longer. I guess you and your dh need to make this decision for yourself, it doesn't really matter how other people feel. I don't think a baby fixes everything though, I think you need to be ready in yourself (if that makes sense) xxx

Sassy - FWIW, i think there comes a time when the desire to have another child outweighs the fear of having another. You'll know when that time comes.

Just nipping in to say Hiya - Tom wants his laptop back - post more tomorrow - love to all xxx