Are all children chronically disobedient...

[jennymac]

or just mine?! They are 2.5 and 3.10 and generally completely ignore me when I tell them to stop doing something. DD (oldest child) is worse - it is generally over something stupid, like I will tell her off for putting a coin in her mouth, and she will do it again straight away. It drives me mad! I would be quite strict and always follow through i.e. I never just ignore it when she is disobedient (though maybe I should!)but I take it this behaviour is normal?

You didn't do anything wrong AandO. You are trying to get him to see it from an adult point of view whereas he is not far from babyhood.
He was oblivious to the purpose of the visit or the crowds. From his point of view he had invented a fun game and it needed your co operation so it was frustrating for him not to have it. You were poles apart, you were there for a purpose, he was there to have fun!
I think the only thing that you could have done differently, and maybe you did it, was to calmly explain once you got home that you knew it was a nice game but it just wasn't the time to play it because there wasn't enough room and there were too many people. Explain that you had told him all the reasons and getting so annoyed that he screamed and hit wasn't the way to act or make you change your mind!
He will understand eventually that his behaviour brings consequences. At the moment he is too young to see the bigger picture-all he could see was that you were spoiling his fun!

You need to stick to it and do exactly the same next time-follow through.

yes - "it's not a good game because it's annoying me/them" is something they need to hear over and over again.

re. roads - they may not understand death, but DD (3) understands "hurt a lot". Maybe not "squash", though, since that's something they can do to teddies which then bounce back. I think explaining the dangers of cars is a sort of belt-and-braces thing to make it less likely that they'll slip your hand.

when DD was 2.5ish I tried to keep the range of explanations as small as possible - a lot of the time it was either "because it's dangerous" or "because we're in a hurry."

(at 2.5 DD said "because", but didn't yet ask why. Now she's started asking why? big time -just after 3 - she appreciates a wider range of explanations, but you still have to keep it really simple, I think.

hmc said Mine still have phases of doing this at age 6 and nearly 8. Generally compliant - but periods of sheer bloody mindedness

My DH has these phases - and it's always because something has happened outside the home to wind him up.

My shouting is done through deathly silence. I got that treatment from my mum and it used to get my attention. I do ask/tell them nicely feel like throwing a wobbly too but when that fails it's the look and silence. Don't mess with Mama!

I do get driven to distraction tho', normally at the end of a day when I'm shattered. Perhaps it's normal for them to keep pressing the "explode mama" button whilst testing boundaries?

Thanks Thumb - Yes, he played up in the shop again today but then when I explained the consequences it all went ok and I was able to complete the shop and go on the picnic!!!

Piscesmoon - I hadn't thought of it that way! I guess it's easy to slip into thinking like he's trying to make things hard for me. I did what you suggested and spoke to him today about how it was a nice game but it was too busy to play it in the supermarket. He seemed fairly happy with the chat.

Thanks guys! All the same alot of other incidents today. I'm particularly worried about the way he lashes out when he is angry, hitting, kicking, pinching etc. The other day he went to hit me in anger and then stopped himself and roared like a really angry dinosaur instead. I can't actually remember what I said but I have been wondering whether I should encourage him to do this instead of lashing out, or whether it is just moving him from one anti social outlet for anger to another. Any thought? I guess I want to know what is an acceptable outlet for his anger?

LOL at the dinosaur, AandO. I need to try that one myself! Mmmmm...I don't know what is an acceptable outlet for anger. My ds2 throws things, dd does all the stamping and throwing on the floor (more self destructive than outward) - they are 20mo twins. I'd say it's a lot more acceptable if it doesn't hurt someone else.

With the anger...how does he see those who he spends a lot of time with dealing with it? Are you or dh angry people? Myself and dh are both quite angry and shouty and I see that modelled in my kids . Does he have older siblings/ cousins/ friends who do it. If you don't think he is 'copying' it from anywhere, then I'm sure he will grow out of it as he gets better at expressing frustration, certainly should by 3-4.

He will learn in school or nursery that kids won't want to play with him (for all of 10 minutes!) if he hits them - and that will help a lot, I think. At school they do tend to treat hitting/ biting other kids as serious and it generally carries a consequence. I do think the dinosaur thing is much better than violence towards you or others, even kicking a wall.

In the cases of him hitting you, I would show him this is unacceptable by not reacting with anger but calmly restraining him as soon as he does it - for example the other day I would have put him in his car seat and strapped him in and then waiting till he calmed down. Then explain that you understand he was angry, but the hitting is unacceptable.

Just read your post properly AndO and see that your ds is 3.5. I have a 4.5 year old, and he played up a lot when the twins were born just before he turned 3. One time he hit a friend's child with some railway track and cut his face - friend's younger ds was being super annoying to him, but it was awful. Friend's dh reacted in shock and just shouted ds's name in angry voice, but actually it was enough for him never to do it again!! He was sobbing, in tears for ages (hates someone else telling him off, let alone a man).

Hey merry, it's good to see you on MN again I like the counting advice, I too am very shouty and would much rather do intense counting and/or silence!
AndO I think you're spot on about alternative anger outlets, I've tried really hard to work on this with my ds1, who's 6.7 and always struggled with it. I started off by suggesting ways that he could get rid of his anger, helped him to describe it as feeling 'spiky' etc. When he was smaller I kept to simple things like doing one big yell and then he was done but I've also taught him yogic breathing. When he gets overwrought I send him upstairs and he 'gets calm' before he can come down. They've got to learn to manage it in a healthy way although I wish I could do it better as an example.
Went to lib today and got out 2 really good books which I hope will help me get them to do things! I don't want them to be slaves but think it's reasonable that they do as they're asked if the things are reasonable

Hi Merry

I have always used the counting and try never to shout at my ds (does that mean daughter, I'm new to this??)

If I do shout it is at what she has done but not directed at her, I find the silent look is all it takes but she knows that actions have consequences and that is important.

It's not ok for them to do something and not understand that bad things can come from it just because they are little.

When my little one squashed her hamster (sqeezed it a bit when it tried to move too quick and no I was not there to see her get it out of her cage) I couldn't get her to admit what she had done, as far as she was concerned the other hamster did it. I didn't push it but explained that because of what the "other hamster did" the hamster had died. My inlaws said to say it was ok or had run away but i dont believe that and now she is very gentle with the new one and is much more aware of her actions.

You do need to look at any anger in the household though because this is reflected back by the kids. Be firm but fair and always, always treat them as you would expect to be treated don't make them your little slaves to get everything for you. ask them properly and thank them when they do something for you and you will get this back from them.

Hi SpanishHarlot - welcome to Mumsnet See the page with all the acronyms on it for a full list of what everything means.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I've been lurking for a while because mine are 1 and 2 and I'm coming across my first major issues with behaviour now (anger in the younger one and general selective-hearing-livewire-iness in the older one).

Keep the tips coming please!

PS Another one here who finds counting works, and (because mine are still young) calmly moving them away from things rather than instructing them from afar.

Accesorize, that's great that you have been able to give him actual strategies.

Dh thinks I shouldn't suggest to ds that he roars instead of hits etc so I guess I'll give it a bit more time to see if he tries the roaring thing again and if he doesn't but instead continues hitting then talk to dh again about this. Does that make sense?

Merry - He wouldn't ever see anyone hitting etc. Dh and I wouldn't do that (although it did happen once ) as how can we teach him that hitting is never the answer if it is what we chose to do. I guess dh gets angry very very very rarely, and when he does he shouts very loudly. I anger much more quickly. I suppose I am more rough with him when angry - liable to grab his wrist and drag him out of the shop etc. His childminder is possibly the loveliest person in the world and does not have to face his anger as she is just brilliant. At preschool he has been taken aside by his teachers twice for 'being too physical'. All done in excitement rather than anger as he is just very physical and loves to squeeze people when he is happy.

I have two very stubborn and potentially defiant children.

My husband expects the children to obey him 100% of the time, and when they don't he'll go straight into shouting at them mode. It always ends up with him shouting at them and them not listening to a word he says.

I prefer the manipulation route myself. As a very defiant child myself, I know that you cannot force a child to do anything that they do not want to do, but it is much easier to make them want to do something, even if the link is very random. For example, I'd say to DD2 "Do you want to see XX tomorrow and play with them at Gymnastics?" response "Yes", then I'd follow that up with "well then, you need to clean your teeth now before bed, cause you can't go to gymnastics tomorrow with dirty teeth". Works in most scenarios - "Do you want to do X later / tomorrow?" "Yes, well give me the penny from your mouth then..." With DD2 (3.5) it can be random things, but with DD1 (6.5), then usually I use real reasons - want X to come over - then tidy your room / go to bed etc etc.

Of course, I do end up having to shout from time to time, but it is significantly less than my husband . I always think of that story with the sun and the wind fighting over who could get the man to take his coat off. Whilst the wind with all its power could not force the man to do it, the sun made the man want to do it.

Thanks madnortherner i will have a look, i feel like i'm missing out on something when i don't know what they are all saying

i loved it when my little one was small but i must admit that i just love every second of her getting older too and starting to read, being able to have real conversations with her. Everything new that she is able to do is just great to see and although i would have liked to have two it the other half didn't so I stuck with the one and make the most of her

going to read thread properly later cos it will really help I think as I have toddler from hell atm.
Good to hear I'm not alone!

accessorize, good to see you too! (sorry OP, hope discussion is helping even if we've gone off a bit). I'm quite a shouty person, but certainly shouted v rarely at ds1. I think it's the combination of 3 kids - and trying to get all of their co-operation - whilst noise levels are REALLY high !

But yes, do agree it's not the best strategy as it won't work on the odd occasion when it's necessary (child running into road).

Spainsh, LOL at "the little slaves to get everything for you" - Oh, I wish!

Hullygully,

He is very forward and thinks he can do anything without assistance. He constantly answers back and we NEVER get what we have asked him to do without a fight. We are like helicopters hovering from a distance to prevent him from his next adventure, that bit is tiring.

I am exhausted with it as is my dh, we had to find a solution to the face to face arguing in case it escalated.

I blame myself as I am the Mum that explains everything, why we do this and this is the consequence. Turns out I am wasting my breath as it is of no consequence to him.

123, works for me, the punishment of banishing him to his room for a period, takes the heat off the arguing and I dont get into any discussion as the why or wherefore.

He knows what he has done wrong so arguing isnt going to help him. I keep silent and if he continues we eventually get to 3 and off he goes. Everyone is safe and I have calmed down!

Ds in a nutshell is exactly the same as a hormonal teenager, just the same!

Counting backwards from five sometimes works (though I often get to one and have to start on the fractions as they are still doing it, whatever 'it' may be!).

mine going through 'oppositional' phase...

am trying to phrase things diferently e.g 'mummys tidying up, what a good mummy!' rather than 'tidy up' works better...

and my personal favourite 'come and help mummy wee'.

also trying to keep in mind the next stage eg. 'shoes on so we can go to the park' and to leave the park 'lets go home for a drink', and then...'lets finish our drink so we can do scribbling' etc...

i have in the past used time out (which works for 18mo's too because it stops them from doing whatever, though as my cot is in the room they would probably remember too why they were there) though this doesn't work when yo want them to do something.

if it is something that doesn't need to happen now, then if she doesn't comply, then normally just saying 'oh well nevermind' works, because she'll decide to do it...(particularly effective where it is something she would normally want to do and she is just mucking about for the attention)

anyway, time to read through and see what other cunning ploys i can use, DD is a clever one and eventually sees through my ruses...
counting works less well as DD jsut waits until 3 then stops mucking around, (but then expects me to be nice about it)

Three things I found really helped:

1. Change your voice (make it deeper) when telling off or warning your child. When they obey, change it back to normal and praise them. This has worked well with DC. We also make a point of praising for good behaviour without waiting for a prompt and rewarding 'exceptional' behaviour, eg if DC has been outstandingly well behaved, they get a special treat (eg a DVD episode or a biscuit).

1. From age 2, HV recommended naughty step (I wasn't sure if it was too early - it wasn't). A one minute time-out for every year they are old (so 2m for 2yo, 3m for 3yo). First told to stop, secondly warned that if they did not stop DC would be punished by time-out on step, and thirdly carry out threat. At age 4 this has changed a little in that extreme bad behaviour - kicking, hitting, screaming, gets an immediate time out. Don't be scared to time out in public - I have been known to do a time out in the supermarket! When the time out finishes we get down to the same level, ask if DC knows why they were punished (and if not, tell them) and ask for an apology & a hug - once done the subject is forgotten. For us, this has worked with time and patience - not sure if it applies to all children!

1. Something I found helpful when DC was small, was to explain in advance what behaviour was required and why if necessary - eg 'we are going into the library to choose books, libraries are usually quiet as people like to concentrate and think. Please try to be quiet when in there and let me know which books you want to take home'; or 'we are going into the supermarket for groceries. I expect you to be well-behaved, polite, to stay near me and not be overly noisy.' As we walked into town I could tell her 5 mins beforehand where we were going and what behaviour was expected and 9 times out of 10 DC would behave appropriately. By being quiet/noisy, I mean I explained DC could talk to me if wanted, but must not be loud (courtesy to others).

Having read another thread earlier, please note I am not trying to be smug or judgemental - what works with one child does not always work with another, but we found the above 'tools' worked for us and were useful although it was not always easy to be consistent (really helps if your DH/DP is willing to do the same when they are with them or are supportive when you do these). DC is not some kind of restrained character - a v.happy & social little B, who is aware of what I call 'considerate behaviour' towards others. DC can run about, shout etc, just has been taught that there are appropriate places to do that (and that supermarkets/ libraries/cafes are not appropriate).

Stillcounting, I think you've given excellent advice. DH and I have always set very clear boundaries and enforce them when DS does something he really knows is naughty. However, lately DS has been pushing boundaries a lot - something which I think is a bit out of character. I suspect we need to change tack and focus less on enforcing and more on a collaborative/ positive reinforcement model.

The idea that this is the age where you crack discipline is absolute tosh. Children are not automatons. It's a relationship. You can still set firm boundaries whilst respecting their right to do things their way sometimes.

Stillcounting, I shall paste that book quote into an email for DH and I to discuss. Thanks!

The idea that this is the age where you crack discipline is absolute tosh.

indeed. i like to believe there is always everything to play for...

MerryMarigold, thanks so much for excellent advice - the 3-step approach by your teacher friend. It has been great with my DD's the last couple of days! Thanks!

Pleasure DKMum. You're doing better than me. I know it, just actually doing it is a lot harder. Apparently if you persevere they learn to co-operate quickly... definitely need some of that.