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Are all children chronically disobedient...

125 replies

jennymac · 30/06/2010 13:41

or just mine?! They are 2.5 and 3.10 and generally completely ignore me when I tell them to stop doing something. DD (oldest child) is worse - it is generally over something stupid, like I will tell her off for putting a coin in her mouth, and she will do it again straight away. It drives me mad! I would be quite strict and always follow through i.e. I never just ignore it when she is disobedient (though maybe I should!)but I take it this behaviour is normal?

OP posts:
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bruffin · 01/07/2010 22:35

Forgot to say, I do expect this bubble to burst any minute, but we are enjoying it while it lasts.

accessorizequeen · 01/07/2010 22:42

MrsJ, congrats on your first post and you are v.kind. I suspect the behaviour is partly/mostly? because we had 4 under 5 and it's been mayhem for nearly 2 years.

What happens if counting gets you nowhere? I mean really what do you threaten a 6yo with? I say I'll take away a toy, he says [interested tone] which one? He misses out on toys, tv, a bedtime story etc. Still raising hell. Bruffin, I realise it's now that it counts but what exactly does putting the work in mean in reality?

pocketmonster · 01/07/2010 22:42

bruffin you are so right 'they behave the worst where they feel the safest' we should all comfort ourselves with that. My DD's can be an utter handful, but they are angelic at school and nursery.

bruffin · 01/07/2010 23:30

I think by hard work I mean, not letting them get away with things for a quiet life, being consistent in what you expect from them.The hard work is having to go through the bad behaviour and feeling like a broken record.

I agree with triggers as well. DS used to go into melt down when he was hungry and he used to get very tantrummy in the lead up to a developmental milestone even when he was long past the toddler stage.

The fact that they go to nursery/school/clubs and behave themselves means it is sinking in, even if they are still pushing the boundaries at home.

I know I probably sound smug, but I don't mean to , but DH and I finally feel that it's all coming together and they are now fun to be around. But we have lots of stresses in the next few years so I am sure it's not going to last.

BubsMaw · 01/07/2010 23:40

So if you're using the counting method, which I've seen people on different threads recommending, what exactly do you do when you reach ten/zero/three or whatever?

Gingerali posts 'all hell broke out', I'm just genuinely unsure what exactly I'm supposed to do at that point.

Sadly I can relate to many of the above stories of wilful defiance.

stopsayingmum · 01/07/2010 23:51

I have a defiant and 'willful' one too.
Drives me bl**dy insane.
DS is very rule orientated, DD very much follows her own agenda.
She has no respect for anyone and demands attention all the time.
Sorry OP - got no answers for you though.

littleoldme · 02/07/2010 04:09

Loads of really useful things here. Another one I would add is that you should not watch them while they do/ don't do what you ask ( unless they are in danger obv} It is really confrontational. I do lots of
" Mummy is going to ut this cup in kitchen and when I come back I want to see the cat out of the dryer or XXXXX "

A trick from the class room whcih seems to work with 14 and 3 year olds alike.

Othersideofthechannel · 02/07/2010 06:08

Jennymac, do you give reasons?

"Take the coin out of your mouth, you could choke"

"Take the coin out of your mouth, coins are covered in bad germs and you could get tummy ache"

Othersideofthechannel · 02/07/2010 06:15

accesorizequeen, does your DS know how to tell the time?

I find it helps to let DS know that x, y and z need to be done by quarter past and leave him to manage his own time. He likes it when I write him a little list with tick boxes. I'll occasionally walk past and say '10 minutes left' if I see he is daydreaming or playing.

piscesmoon · 02/07/2010 06:27

'Most children model their behaviour on that of the significant adults around them; if the adults around them are basically calm and patient, with civilised manners, their children will most probably follow their example with only gentle prodding. '

I agree with Bonsoir. You need to work hard at it when they are young or they are impossible later. Always be consistent and if you stop it one day you have to stop it the next.

Bonsoir · 02/07/2010 06:54

OSOTC - I have always given my DD (and my DSSs) the reason why I want her to do (or not do) something. Even if the reason is that Mummy is tired and wants some peace and quiet now.

I had quite an unpleasant conversation with DD's class teacher recently. The French class teacher disagrees with giving children reasons for requesting certain behaviours - her take is that the children should do what she says without questioning her.

DD, who is a very cooperative child in general, sometimes cannot cooperate at school - she is still waiting for the reason why she should do something. She is not "defiant" or "disobedient", she just cannot get started because "just because I say so" is not a reason for her.

Adair · 02/07/2010 06:57

Otherside, am SO with you on giving reasons. And then they are more likely to do the right thing when you are not there too (rather than only complying out of fear).

And there is always a reason. Even if that reason is 'you are annoying me'.

twinsplus3 · 02/07/2010 08:06

not had chance to read all reple's so someone else may have already said this. With my DS aged 3 I found the most effective thing is to focuse on what I DO want him to do i.e if I said stern voice "take that coin out your mouth right now.." he would probably ignore me. Where as if I said "ds we dont eat coins, go and put it in the money box for mummy" he will do exactly as ive asked. Works every time, when im rushed and dont do this is when we get the whole battle of wills thing. We havent actually eatting coins though just using ops example.

jennymac · 02/07/2010 08:38

Otherside I do always give reasons i.e. when I tell them not to jump up and down on the sofa, I say it is because they are likely to fall off and hurt themselves (which invariably happens). It drives me mad because there I am trying to make the dinner, see them jumping up and down on the sofas, tell them not to (generally have to physically take the 2yr old off) go back to the kitchen, hear someone crying, turn round to find they have got back on the sofas and one has either fallen off or banged their heads!
Another thing that is really annoying is the faffing that dd does whenever she goes to do anything e.g. if I am taking her to the toilet, she messes around on the stairs, tries to pull the light switch in the bathroom on the way past, will then try to mess around with the toilet roll etc - why can she never just do something in a straightforward way? Really bugs me especially if we are getting ready to go out or in a hurry!

OP posts:
Hullygully · 02/07/2010 09:41

jenny - but that is what they do! it is easier if you work with what you've got than try and mould it into what you want. So if you know you need to go out at x time, start an hour earlier so that there is time for all the intriguing activities up the stairs, you won't always be able to do that, but if you build it in mostly, it will save frustration.

It is also much easier if you just laugh most of the time. If they put a coin in their mouth, laugh and say, that's a bit silly isn't it? Why don't you pop it in the box? (as suggested above) etc. Think how you feel if someone speaks harshly to you, or demands you jump to it - it creates resentment, you want to create willing co-operation, a sense of, we're all in this together. Divide stuff up, eg, you go and put x away, and mummy will y, then we can all z. They love to feel part of things and that what they does matters.

My dc are 13 and 11 and I have never applied sanctions like removing computers, no tv etc, because they are irrelevant. They are about power, look, it says, I can do this to you and again breeds resentment. If they do wrong, have a nice chat about it and why it was wrong, they are much more likely to see sense and think about it next time.

Alternatively, put them in a cupboard until they're 18 and have a large glass of wine!

vesela · 02/07/2010 09:52

I totally agree with giving reasons, but in my experience it's all-important to make the reason-giving/persuasion take centre stage - i.e. go all out to persuade, as effectively as possible and in a way the child understands. Then it works.

camaleon · 02/07/2010 11:22

Jennymac, answering your question on title, here comes one from Oscar Wilde: 'Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience and rebellion that progress has been made'.

I know, it does not help...

tribunalgoer · 02/07/2010 11:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Othersideofthechannel · 02/07/2010 12:10

I think your expectations are a bit high. They are still quite little. Like it or not, you are going to have to tell them again and again what is and isn't acceptable.

Like you, I also find being an onlooker while they faff most frustrating. If your DD is nearly 4, can you teach her to go to the toilet herself and call you when she's finished for help wiping and washing?

jennymac · 02/07/2010 12:23

Otherside - I have started sending her up on her own and just going up for the vital stages now she is older. It was worse when she was younger and ds was really too young to be left alone downstairs for even a couple of mins. I never thought I would miss having a downstairs loo so much! Thankfully the faffing gene seems to have bypassed ds. He seems capable of moving from step A to B in a process without trying to do about fifty things in between!

OP posts:
robberbutton · 02/07/2010 12:43

I try having high goals but low expectations. i.e. I do think it is within the realms of possibility to have well mannered, obedient children, and it is something I try and work towards (using lots of advice already given). But I tend to assume that my children won't immediately do exactly what I would like them too. Having that mindset helps with me not getting so upset and frustrated (I can be super-shouty ), and feeling more prepared generally for when the inevitable happens. And then of course when they are well-behaved, it's a lovely surprise!

It works well with the baby too. If I can feel peaceful and think 'well it probably will take all evening to settle her' then I cope better when it does!

I've noticed just the last few days with my 4 year old: he has been totally defiant and able to zone out no matter what frenzied pitch I reached, but now it's much rarer for me to shout he comes and hugs me straight away when I do, with a 'I'm really sorry mummy!' And of course that calms me right down and we can work it out. My aim is still not to shout at all though.

LoveMyGirls · 02/07/2010 13:02

I havent read the thread but quickly wanted to say my thought's on this subject are...

have a good routine so you can try to avoid tantrums due to tiredness, hunger, thirst

give warnings before expecting shoes to on or to leave the house etc

pick your battles

use a firm deep voice

use time out

be consistant

explain why you would like your child to do something

give two choices for things if you can so they feel they have a choice eg. Lucy share the toy or I will put it away, do you want to share or shall I take it away? (usually they will chose to share, problem solved )

hth

Tenalady · 02/07/2010 13:31

With the older one, try the counting. My ds never responded to stern stares or voices. I adopted the counting method 123 magic. I still use it today and it works.

When they misbehave count 1 but keep silent, do not interact with them at all cost. If still no response count 2, keep silent, if still no response count 3 and tell them they are to spend time on their naughty step or bedroom for 5 mins, if they move from the allocated spot, then the 5 mins starts again.

If after the first count of 3 doesnt work, start again so if you reach 3 again, they lose a further 5 mins taking the total to 10.

They sooon get the hang of it. The key is not to engage in any conversation between the counting not even to explain what you are doing, if you do then you have lost the battle in the 'will' game.

The younger one will watch and learn.

The most I have got to with my ds now 8 is 25 minutes and boy did that hurt. But he takes himself off to his bedroom once he knows that I am not getting into any conversation or explanation or showing any anger or emotion whilst counting him.

CantSupinate · 02/07/2010 14:16

. Marking my place so that I can come back & read it all later.

Hullygully · 02/07/2010 15:00

Tena lady - that sounds so exhausting.