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Are all children chronically disobedient...

125 replies

jennymac · 30/06/2010 13:41

or just mine?! They are 2.5 and 3.10 and generally completely ignore me when I tell them to stop doing something. DD (oldest child) is worse - it is generally over something stupid, like I will tell her off for putting a coin in her mouth, and she will do it again straight away. It drives me mad! I would be quite strict and always follow through i.e. I never just ignore it when she is disobedient (though maybe I should!)but I take it this behaviour is normal?

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Hullygully · 01/07/2010 14:45

You can move everything. Before our ds arrived we had childlocked every cupboard (apart from one he could play with), and had nothing (except toys) below waist height (even the bin was on a windowsill). This meant he could wander about completely freely and safely and we could sit down and not have to constantly monitor, supervise and remove things.

Mind you, one day he did get into my dh's workroom where we eventually found him sitting in a pool of white spirit...

JacobBlacksBitch · 01/07/2010 14:50

we use "Good Listening" which I got from our childminder. It works well because it avoids Good girl/bad girl stuff & is about behaviour. But also it's consistant & can be used in various different ways. DD knows what 'good listening' is & what it isn't.

So if I asked her to do something or not do something, rather than repeating myself or getting worked up about disobedience, I say "Are you doing good listening" or "That isn't good listening" etc and it seems to cut through everything else - she can focus on it.

Sorry not sure If I'm making sense here - It's probably used by everyone. But it is very effective for us.

At CM's she gets good listening stickers at end of the day, but we don't have similar chart at home. DD is so proud to get full sticker chart for good listening.

Bonsoir · 01/07/2010 14:57

I had very little stuff out when DD was little. She regularly emptied the kitchen cupboards, so I made sure that nothing that could harm her was kept in the lower cupboards; and she was a great climber, so I kept the dining chairs out of the way so she couldn't climb on the table and take a leap into space.

That phase doesn't last long, and they love exploring so - why deny them the pleasure?

Adair · 01/07/2010 14:59

WEll, I suppose you CAN move everything/guard everything (not convinced) - do you really want to though?

Am totally with both of you on letting them explore. Dd and ds both had the run of the flat (now house) from v early on. But we didn't really do any childproofing though, bar anything ridiculously dangerous. Certainly didn't move the bin - how do they put the rubbish in it if they can't reach it?

I guess our approach is trying to teach what things are for, so 'this is what you CAN do'-ie this is YOUR cupboard/hold it gently/put the rubbish in there kinda family. Seems to have worked alright. Though ds still obsessed with the loo, hopefully will change when he can actually use it .

tablefor3 · 01/07/2010 15:02

Also to the poster up thread whose children often didn;t want to stop doing what they were doing and instead do what she needed them to do: -

I read (b/c DD is too small still, so this is strictly theory) that a good technique is to give them warning, 5 mins 10 mins, of when you want them to eg. stop playing with the lego etc and put their shoes on to go out.

AS an adult it is irritating and disconcerting to be told to immediately go and do something when one is occupied, and the same with children. Instead, if you give them fair warning of a change of activity, you stand a better chance co-operation because you are causing such a disruption.

Bonsoir · 01/07/2010 15:02

I'm naturally inclined to mega-minimalism, so it wasn't too hard for me to get rid of anything dangerous or precious

tablefor3 · 01/07/2010 15:07

NOT causing... obviously...

Hullygully · 01/07/2010 15:07

Somehow mine have managed to work out to use a bin despite their early sensory deprivation training.

SuzieHomemaker · 01/07/2010 15:45

What worked for us was deciding what really mattered to us and concentrating on that only. However on those small number of items we were (and still are) absolutely strict. DCs know those rules and respect them.

There is a lot to be said for moving things up when DCs are small. I will confess though that I deliberately left an ornament which I disliked within reach. Given by MIL and we loathed it! The inevitable happened but as the culprit was DGC there was no problem (or replacement thank goodness).

bebejones · 01/07/2010 15:54

My 22 month old DD is hugely defiant (and too smart for her own good IMO) I have found that what often works best is stern voice once & then silence if the defiance is repeated. If it is something 'dangerous' I remove it/her (she is particularly keen on jumping on sofas & tables ) & then ignore her, I have found that mostly it is an attention thing. She does know when she shouldn't do things & gives me a very mischevious look when she is misbehaving & often runs off laughing when I go to get her! DH & I caught her playing with the plug socket the other day, she was told off & she said 'I not sorry' laughed and ran off! If DH hadn't been there I'd have thought I'd misheard her!! Thankfully it is becoming easier now to reason (a little bit) with her! Removing everything is just not practical at all for us, it is far easier to explain to her & remove her from the situation.

Adair · 01/07/2010 16:35
Grin
Stillcounting · 01/07/2010 16:50

This is an old chestnut on Mnsnet so apologies if you already know about this book, but can recommend having a read of:

"Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn

Personally, I think it goes too far but there is a great deal of sense in what it says.

Basically, before I knew beter, I tried the very strict approach with dd without success. It put us in to daily conflict over a myriad of ridiculously small issues. And it didn't work. She simply didn't listen because I was always saying 'no' or criticising.

The following paragraphs sum up the main premis of the book:

" Let's put aside for the moment the ambitious goals we have four our dc and just focus on what leads them to comply with our requests. If all we cared about was getting them to do something, or to stop doing something, right now, while we're standing there, then we'd have to admit that it sometimes work to use our 'power' to coerce that behaviour - for example by threatening, punishing or loudly demanding. But only sometimes.

On balance, the kids who DO what they're told are likely to be those whose parents DON'T rely on power and instead have developed a warm and secure relationship with them. They have parents who treat them with respect, minimize the use of control, and make a point of offering reasons and explanations for what they ask.

The researchers in one classic stuy began by distinguishing between the sort of parent who is sensitive, accepting and cooperative, and the sort who assumes "she has a perfect right to do (with her child) what she wishes, imposing her will on his, shaping him to her standards, and interrupting him arbitrarily without regard for his needs, wishes or activity-in-progress"

Lo and behold, it was the mothers in the first category - those who were less controlling - whose very young children were likely to do what they were told.

In a second study, the two-year-olds who were most likely to comply with a specific request turned out to be those whose parents "were very clear about what they wanted, but in addition to listening to their dcs' objections, they also accommodated them in ways that conveyed respect for the dcs' autonomy and individuality"

Not for a moment suggesting that you are too strict Jennymac but I HAD gone to far in that direction before I read this book and - although it is of course much easier 'read' than done - it has really improved my relationship with dd.

It was when I realised that one can't - or shouldn't try (within reason of course!!) to control a child that - ironically - dd became more easier to control.

Sorry for the essay but it's a bit of a hot topic for me at the moment.

jennymac · 01/07/2010 17:35

Thanks everyone for all the advice. TBH the dcs aren't too bad and are very well behaved at nursery and with relatives and other children etc. Sometimes I think I do get too hung up on the small things so will try to chill out a bit. I do notice that if either me and dh, or the kids are tired then things always get a bit more stressful and wound up so being a bit calmer myself and understanding more why they are behaving badly might help. My friend whose children are older was complaining about her teenager's attitude so I guess it doesn't get easier !

OP posts:
bruffin · 01/07/2010 19:19

I was once told that children who play up for their parents, and behave well for other people do so because they are very secure in their parents love.

Livingbytheriver · 01/07/2010 19:40

Very good words to read after the day I have just had, thank you bruffin. I hope it's true!

LaRagazzaInglese · 01/07/2010 19:54

Consequences. They'll stop if they don't want the consequence of continuing. Give them an ultimatum, 'stop that or.....' if there's always a punishment for disobeying mummy, they'll soon learn you mean business.

The kids i look after (4.7 & 3.3) aren't scared of being told off because there is almost never a punishment. They carry on because they know that their parents won't do anything.

The other thing that annoys me a bit is when they're doing something naughty like spraying a water spray all over the floor, and their mum will say 'stop', of course he carries on, so she'll just take it out of his hands. I think this is just doing it for him, rather than him learning self-control and of course obedience. He did it with me once, as i walked in and saw him, he did it even more laughing as if 'quick before she takes it from me!' i just repeated 'stop it' in a very serious low voice and hard face, he looked confused as to why i wasn't taking from him, then slowed down like it wasn't much fun, realised it was silly behaviour, and eventually stopped by himself.

The other girl i look after (4.8) was told off for being disobedient, her punishment was no tv for a week, when i asked her how she felt about it, she answered 'i know mummy will change her mind and let me watch tv anyway' so her mother's word was invalid to her.

Anyway always remind them and warn them of the punishment that will follow if they continue to disobey, and be consistent and follow through. Do what you said you were going to do.

CJCregg · 01/07/2010 19:55

Bruffin, I have only just joined this thread and need to read the whole thing but I totally love you for saying that.

hmc · 01/07/2010 19:56

Mine still have phases of doing this at age 6 and nearly 8. Generally compliant - but periods of sheer bloody mindedness

hmc · 01/07/2010 19:59

They have similar personality traits to me - a healthy disrespect for authority. Not so great when I am the 'authority'

accessorizequeen · 01/07/2010 20:41

I'm finding this all v.interesting, but still bemused as to what I'm doing wrong. I feel increasingly that I will end up with 4 incredibly defiant children. They're currently 6.7, 3.7 and the dts are 21 months. The 6.7yo still has major tantrums when told he can't have something/do something/whatever. Now the until now quite angelic 3.7yo is becoming defiant. I am a shouter, I am not calm, I've had PND for about 8 months and the ADs are helping but they're doing my head in. 6yo is a sweet, funny boy, but he v.v.rarely does as he's asked the first time. And the tantrums just seem plain mad at this age, he'll scream for 20 mins and trash his bedroom.
I've read how to talk, when I use the bits from it works v.v.well with 6yo. am trying at present to write 'rule list' in conjunction with him, he was extremely keen. I just seem utterly useful at being consistent or knowing how to deal with the defiance. I feel I have no authority and I don't think I can manage 4 such young dcs without it. It's all going to hell in a handbasket and I'm yelling far too much with no visible results!
Any advice ?

MrsJuggler · 01/07/2010 21:34

You won't end up with 4 incredibly defiant children. You're handling a complex, energetic, demanding, wonderful, adoring, rapidly developing, exhausting, glorious bunch of DCs here and I think you're amazing if you're even managing to get all of you dressed and fed each day! As they get older, they will get a bit steadier & calmer, and look for sources of stimulus other than just being a pain....
(Hope this doesn't sound patronising or supercilious at all- it's my first day on MN today, so this is my 1st post - point of all that waffle was to be supportive )

MrsJuggler · 01/07/2010 21:45

PS I twigged that my 3.6 dd was being defiant t'other day just to get my attention, esp when she was tired - so I learnt from it, didn't over-stimulate her, and gave her lots of attention the following day.... it probably reduced her defiance by about 20%... ah well, if I'm lucky I'll crack it before she's 21...
PPS La Ragazza Inglese - I remember when I was little, friends of my parents always told their son that if he didn't behave, he had to 'Accept the Consequences'. It always got him into line - and after 35 years, I've never, ever found out what those mysterious consequences actually were!

gingerali · 01/07/2010 22:10

I found counting to 10 very good - but to be very effective you have to get to 10 at least once and be prepared for what will happen then - I reached it only once with my daughter when all hell boke out - we both ended up in tears! but after that i didn't have to go past 8 before she did what I wanted. The good thing is that you are in control of how long it will take you to count - Now she 12 I find it useful for getting the bedroom tidied lol

Meglet · 01/07/2010 22:17

bruffin I cling onto that phrase. My dc's attempt to run rings round me but they are lovely for everyone else, including (most importantly) at nursery.

The nursery staff always says it's because the dc's are so secure with me that they think they can raise hell at home . We muddle through and I think their behaviour is improving but it's been a hard slog for the last few months.

bruffin · 01/07/2010 22:34

Meglet DCs are now 12 (DD)and 14(DS) and they are actually really well behaved at the moment. We have the odd teenage attitude but it's not really a problem. They haven't even argued for months. DDs friend told her on saturday that it was "unnatural" for to get on so well with her brother It's not been easy, they have been very hard work over the years.

I do think you have to put all the hard work when they are little to reap the rewards later.