Are all children chronically disobedient...

[jennymac]

or just mine?! They are 2.5 and 3.10 and generally completely ignore me when I tell them to stop doing something. DD (oldest child) is worse - it is generally over something stupid, like I will tell her off for putting a coin in her mouth, and she will do it again straight away. It drives me mad! I would be quite strict and always follow through i.e. I never just ignore it when she is disobedient (though maybe I should!)but I take it this behaviour is normal?

And your ds is 8. What on earth does he do that warrants all that counting and naughty step stuff?

Kids don't get consequences. They really don't understand cause and effect until quite a bit older. You can explain until you are blue in the face and they can recite it back to you but they don't 'get' it. For example - how can a child who doesn't yet understand death really get why you don't run near a road?

I'm a fan of explaining why I say to do something but I do expect to be obeyed regardless - there will be times that my children won't understand or agree with my reasoning and they are children who are my responsibilty to keep safe and healthy.

Hopefully as they get older (eldest 2.5) the balance will be able to go more into explaining and then naturally progress to adulthood when they won't need to do as I ask but hopefully will want to.

eg. DS decided not to hold the buggy on the way to the shops this morning as he usually does really well.

"DS hold the buggy"

"No!"

"1, 2" and by 3 he was attached firmly to it - we have only ever got to three once and I picked him up put him in his room silently and shut the door. I came back 30s later opened the door brightly and asked him if he wanted water or milk with lunch - we never mentioned it again!

When he has hold of the buggy and is 1) safe 2) obeying then I'll explain "you have to hold onto the buggy or my hand as we are near a busy road. If you get squashed I'll be sad. If you let go again I'll have to put your wrist strap on again (natural consequences) to keep you safe"

Then if he lets go (he didn't today) he has had a warning and it only takes me to 1 to get him back again.

You do need a scary mum look though. I also do a good line is Scary mummy shouting - it has been used twice when he got out of his car seat. I stopped, shouted, he cried, I ignored him and strapped him in, random person walked by who I am sure was getting ready to call SS! , got back int he car and drove off while he sobbed for a few more minutes and I shook......but he's not done it again.

Discipline depends on the age of the child, the level of 'threat' if they don't do it and at all costs try and avoid triggers.

ps. and accept there will still be bad days sometimes

I think they do understand consequences. DS (2.5) certainly understands that if he runs into the road he might get hit and that will hurt. If he doesn't hold my hand, he gets warning that he'll go in the buggy, once more slip and he gets belted in.

He's pretty good generally, the worst thing is trying to get him to leave the playground - I've tried giving him plenty of warnings that we're going (having been there for half an hour at least) and I still have to peel him off the play tractor and cart him out of the play area kicking and screaming

It's the selective hearing that I find hardest to deal with though.

Just wondering hullygully if you put everything out of reach at home, how did you deal with visiting other folks' houses?

Well obviously a teensy bit more supervision was required in houses where everything wasn't above waist height. If it was other people with kids, it was usually fairly well childproofed, and if they didn't have children, all visits were fairly hit and run - before people of different ages began to find each other challenging.

We used to keep things out of reach at home.
But as we live in a different country from GPs, we had to stay over in their house, full of ornaments, low drawers containing sharp scissors, needles etc.

You just have to remain super vigilant and it's not very relaxing but then you don't have to cook meals, wash clothes etc when you are a guest so you can be vigilant in a way you can't at home.

Oh visiting the family was always so stressful. We didn't move stuff out of the way at home, more likely to move DS tbh. Though he learnt what he could and couldn't touch at home, it didn't stop his curiousity elsewhere. New things, new adventures.

I am trying to pull back from shouty. I have a 3yo who was always lovely and is now challenging to say the very least. Shops are the absolute worst.

I am finding the low deep voice, complete eye contact and 'Mummy is now very angry' seems to work over yell yell yell

I also resort to silence to get where I need to get to, she knows if I am silent I am seething.

So, 3 ... is it worse than 2? Does it pass soon?

No not all children are disobedient.

Mine isn't. He is very upset if I am not happy with him.

But that does have its down sides. He is upset if others are unhappy with him (in reception) etc.

Marsha - does your DS have perfectionist tendencies? My DD does, and she will even get upset with herself when she makes a mistake (even if no-one else is at all cross!). Though she is also very good at searching out comfort for having made a mistake, so doesn't get too stressed out.

yes. He loves drawing and writing stories and unfortunately gets very stressed if it's not 'right'.

It could be a five year old foible, I think.

I mean I hope he will get better at managing his stress.

I'm quite torn - on the one hand, I like the fact that she recognises her own mistakes and is cross with herself - no better way of learning to do better next time IMO.

On the other hand, I really don't want her to become a stressed out perfectionist who'll be hospitalised for anorexia in her teens.

At the moment she seems fine - the other day she dropped a box of eggs in her enthusiasm to help me unpack the shopping. I wasn't cross at all - it was a genuine mistake and wanting to help me unpack the shopping was so well meant - and comforted her. She surprised me by asking me to tell Papa when he got home that night all about her mistake. She didn't want to tell him herself, but she wanted him to comfort her too.

aw it's lovely that she wanted her Papa to know. It must have been quite big in her mind and it's lovely that he is a source of comfort.

It is a hard thing. Once I let ds really rip up a piece of work he was unhappy with. We ended up laughing but I should really look into what is the best thing to do.

This thread is making me think about it. I have very high standards for myself and it is not surprising that DD has them too... but I am not particularly good at seeking out comfort from others when I fail to make the standards I have set myself. My DP is much better at admitting his perceived failings and getting comfort... and hence gets less stressed...

Also I was the same when I was little. It mattered greatly to be good and be good at stuff (ballet, piano, school etc).

But, but I do think EDs are very complex and thrive due to a perceived lack of attention or due to seemingly unfair family dynamic.

So I think your dd will go far.... because she has a lot of attention and love etc.

Hope so . I certainly don't put pressure directly on her - there is no point pressurising a child who basically wants to be good/do well anyway.

totally agree with hullygully - a sense of humour is the key, and putting yourself in their shoes.

i also avoid situations that will be stressful, eg i have only ever taken all 3 of them to a supermarket once. it's not an experience any of us are in a hurry to repeat .

i think every one has their own ideas of what is and isn't acceptable and to a certain extent i think these are fairly irrelevant, the most important thing is to believe in your own parenting abilities and have as much fun as you can amongst all the stresses and strains of it all.

most of it doesn't matter anyway.

I have 3 very different children.

DD1 - 4.6, has special needs, starting special school in september. Nothing works. Nothing. What is revered one day is scorned the next. Except 1, 2, 3. But as Tribunalgoer says, the real key is to make sure the consequence can be followed through. Also, I find, planning the consequence as soon as I see things are going awry. Something as simple as "I am going to count to 3 and if you do not get off of that table, I will have to help you!"

DD2 - 2.10 - Essentially a people-pleaser. Wants everything 'right'. Quite neurotic about order (tea towel used as a dolly blanket HAS to be straight). But she is very headstrong, and will simply say 'no!'. She pushes the boundary every time. You say you will count to 3, and you see her foot flexing on 1, her toes clenching on 2, her foot inching forward on 3, then a coy smile and action after.

DD3 - 1.2 - My word she is going to be a challenge!! She is feisty, confident, determined, headstrong, and just knows she is clever and funny. But, she is responding nicely to tone of voice and 1,2,3.

What I find difficult though, is the 'pack mentality'. I can get around 1 of them, but if 2 of them together are playing, they rely on each other to bolster them, and it is MUCH harder to break through.

I didn't particularly find I had "cracked" the obedience thing in one impressive crack when dd was 2, or 3. I spent a lot of time moving things out of her way, or moving her or watching out tantrums. Ds was slightly more compliant, but not to the point of always stopping something he wanted to do because I said so. I by all accounts was a complete little horror. But we have all grown up (at 10, 13 and 47 respectively) into reasonably civilised human beings who respect other people's needs and do not tantrum in public. So that's all right then

I think my Mum did right in that she did not set out to "crack" me or "break" me. She did ensure that she was obeyed, insofar as any object I wasn't allowed to have was removed etc- but she did not make it her aim to break my independent spirit.

My friend is a fantastic and very well respected teacher. This is the technique she uses for getting the quick co-operation of 30 kids.

1. Ask nicely and in pleasant voice. Please don't put that coin in your mouth. Massive praise if instruction followed.
2. Ask with severe tone. No praise if it is done.
3. Physical intervention. Remove coin and remove child out of situation, don't speak to them at all.

She says kids really like the first one and hate the last one, so they learn to do the first one (over time, but not that long). I've found it hard with my dc's though! ds2 is very defiant. And positively grins when he's being disobedient. He's a massive attention seeker, so I can see that at the moment the disobedience is getting a lot more attention and that's what I really like about the above technique.

Tell me what I did wrong:

Today I was in the supermarket with ds (3.5) getting just a few items for a picnic in the park. He decided he wanted to hold one side of the basket, and walk backwards. It was busy in the shop and was hard to do and I was just concentrating on getting the things and not tripping over him. He kept on moaning that I wasn't doing it right. After a bit I got down on his level and told him he needed just to walk properly, that it was too busy. He then pinched me and shouted at me! I said if he didn't stop that behaviour right away we would go leave the shop without the picnic. He did it again. I had to carry him out of the shop kicking and screaming and hitting with everyone staring at me. I put him in the car and sat in the front seat myself. He was completely hysterical, saying he wanted to go back into the shop, he wanted the picnic. I remained calm, I told him that wasn't going to happen because of his behaviour in the shop, and that I was going to sit quietly in the car until he was ready to calm down, and get into his car seat to go home. After some screaming and he even pulled my hair he then got into his seat and told me he was ready. I strapped him in and we went home.

I gave warnings, listed consequences, then followed through. I always do this, yet this behaviour occured! I am at a loss! What am I doing wrong?

I don't think they understand death, no, but they understand danger, i.e fear and pain, like explaining about the road and getting squashed will hurt and make them cry, they get that.

They understand the consequence when they experience it, for example, they want a drink/snack but don't want to sit at the table, then you explain that if they dont sit down they cant have the drink, they want both, to stand up/run around and eat/drink, so therefore are put in a position to make a decision and choose for themselves, then they put the 2 together and understand the rule. Sit down to eat (because mum/dad says so)
And always explain why you're saying no, 'i'm not saying it to upset you, i'm saying it because i don't want you to get hurt' etc they dont resent you so much. It works when you dont want them to have too much chocolate 'i dont want you to get a runny bottom' then they remember how bad tummy ache is and their face changes.

LaRagazza - that chocolate one would be useful for DS if only he'd ever had a bad tummyache! thankfully he hasn't so far (for his sake) but there goes another lever!

A&O - although it didn't work out this time, I bet you'll find he doesn't do it next time - he was testing you to see how far you'd go and whether you'd back down, which you didn't. So although it doesn't feel like you've achieved this time, you've set the bar for the next time.

I have an 'excellent' shouty voice - it has 3 settings, the last one only to be used in emergencies. I used to have the stern face down to a fine art but now DS just grins at me until I can't hold it any more.I try not to shout until it's needed though and I get quite irritated when DH does "play shouting" because I realise the value of the shock of the sudden elevation of noise!