When i was a kid, i wouldnt DARE argue with grown ups, so what has changed?

[meatntattypie]

Is it a generation thing?
What is so different nowadays?
ds aged 6 is bieng so cheeky, and when i try to explain to him that it is unacceptable to speak to grown ups like that, he rolls his eyes and says blah blah blah", it drives me fucking crazy.

The one difference is that my parents would smack me sensless, i dont hit my son.
But how do you deal with this?

yesterday in Asda i held open a loo door about to walk through when 2 small kids pushed past me and went through the door, never said a single word, i just wouldnt dare do anything like this as a kid, so why is it so different, why is there a lack of respect now do you think?

Is arguing always the same as being cheeky? Why is it wrong for a child to argue with a frown up? I never understood that as a child (and I was also in the smacked senseless club) and I don't understand it any better now.

I used to loathe the term 'answering back'. What is so wrong with answering back?

Ther is some kind of boundary between genuine arguing and just plain aggravation. But I'm all for genuine argument.

grown up even

Acinonyx - for me it's a tone of voice thing. And though it might sound petty, I think it's important for kids to learn how to articulate their point without being aggravating. That included biting your tongue 'in the heat of the moment' and raising the issue in a calm constructive way later.

Rudeness (which is the grown up version of 'answering back' and 'cheekiness') is the kind of thing that turns a misunderstanding into a fight when it comes to teens and young adults.

I argued with my parents when I was little. Don't think I was rude as such, but I did challenge their decisions/statements if I thought they were wrong (and sometimes they admitted that I was right). I did not grow up to be rude to teachers, or indeed (I think) to anybody else.

Dd also questioned me if she did not believe what I said, and I did not take that as rudeness. Though I am sure if she had used a different tone of voice I would have done.

I am a teaching academic, and I hate hate hate it when students take everything on trust and won't use their own brains.

I agree that tone of voice is important and I do try to teach dd about 'attitude'

Cory - I'm a teaching academic too - argument kind of goes with the territory!

It IS hard when you have been disciplined by force yourself to know how to discipline some other way. I'm still pondering that one myself! If the tone is really infuriating - can you discipline in the non-violent way you would to teach anything else e.g. putting on shoes etc? That's what I intend to do.

Dont get me wrong, i am a big fan of discussion.
I was just pondering the difference between my childhood and ds's childhood.
I think that as there is no violence used to discipline, therefore ds is not frightened of me (as i was of my mother & father) he has found a little weak area and feels able to be downright rude, argumentative and speak to me like i am nothing......
So, tone of voice is good, it defo works, i am no push over btw. threats and negotiation also work, but i am always surprised when he tries it with me.

Children do have a right to have their voice heard. My dd tells me this frequently. I blame the school for introducing the concept of children's rights that (I think) is a charter of the UN.

Surely it's the difference in how adults treat each other which children merely imitate? I don't think we treat each other with much respect really (and I'm as guilty as anyone else) whereas perhaps when we were children (I am ancient though) adults generally had more respect for authority etc?

As an adult you have to treat DCs politely and they copy.If I tell mine that something is unacceptable I wouldn't put up with them rolling their eyes and saying 'blah, blah'. You have to stop it the first time and stop it every single time. People only speak to you in a certain way if you let them. You have to speak with authority and the belief that they will comply. If you say something, but don't believe they will comply then they won't because your body language will belie your words.
Parents don't have the authority they used to have because they won't say 'no'-they are rather like the politician who wants votes! A parent has to do the unpopular. You have to realise that when you DC says 'I hate you' they don't mean it!

'Children do have a right to have their voice heard. My dd tells me this frequently. I blame the school for introducing the concept of children's rights that (I think) is a charter of the UN.'

When it is taught in schools, it is linked with the corresponding responsibility.
The right to have our opinion heard, the responsibility to listen to other people's opinions respectfully.

I agree with her right to a voice, I just wish she'd use it with greater discretion.

I think the main thing is to put the emphasis on "you don't talk to people like that," not "you don't talk to grown-ups like that" i.e. not to turn it into an us-and-them thing.

When I was a child, "don't talk to me like that because I'm your mother/father/an adult" was the bane of my (now good!) relationship with my parents. I wasn't smacked senseless, but there were a lot of drained emotions all round. I wish they'd said "don't talk to people like that" instead.

Erm the child in question is 6 for goodness sake he's exploring his environment checking everything and everyone out.

it's not like he's 12.

If you usually talk to him in a reasonable and respectful way he should take his cue from you, if not, well they learn by example don't they?

it's good that that DC's don't live in fear of being smacked senseless isn't it??

It is good that he doesnt live in fear.

we are a quite and peaceful home, so i can only think that this has come from school and my pal whos son is the same age says that her boy is doing this at the mo as well, so probably a horrid phase (soon it shall pass)

I am frequently flumoxed by the things that he does, and so do need some guidance from those in the know (thanks mumsnet )

He is an only, i have no experience of kids really and have my own childhood experiences to draw from. Many of those experiences were not nice and i am determined come hell & high water to NOT be a parent like mine were.
So, i ask for advice and guidance.
Parenting is the hardest thing i have ever encountered in my life (and the best)

It is the hardest thing and it never gets easier! Just lead by example, then if he speaks to you rudely you can looked shocked and tell him that it isn't language used in your house and he is not to use it.

Vesela is spot on. It's about respect for people, not about cringing before authority. I believe if you keep modelling respectful behaviour and show your children clearly that you expect them to follow it too, and act surprised when they do not, then in 99% of cases, any passing phase will be just that- passing. My ds was quite into challenging authority when he was 7 and 8, but I found I could get a long way just with a pair of raised eyebrows.

I know, it's a really good question. What were we so scared of? and why are today's kids not scared at all.

I have pondered this myself......

I think that, as parents, and in school, children are encouraged to articulate their emotions, opinions, and to assert themselves MUCH more than I was. This is all good.

However, I wonder if it goes awry , at least for a while, when they are too young to really have insight into OTHER peoples feelings. I agree it's normally a phase.

FWIW, both my DSs have gone through exactly that "bla bla bla" thing (DS2 coming out of it now). I was appalled when DS1 started it, thinking i had not been strict enough with him.

On the other hand, I do look at some childrens programmes and see a basic rudeness represented eg Tracy Beaker, Horrid Henry, that makes me wince a bit.

Just to add, my two were exactly 6 when they started this rude phase. I 'm not sure what it is about this age, but I know it has been mentioned on MN on other threads plenty of times.

there is no respect because there is no fear.

being rude to an adult would have gotten me a slap in 1986.

Many of my friend's children are rude to their parents and every other adult around them (except me, no 9 year old speaks to me like the shit on his shoe)

It's very simple.

Children these das do not fear grown ups, they are not scared of them or threatened or physically punished.

And on the whole, that is a good thing.

meatntatty you should not tolerate that level of rudness from your DS though. There are ways of teaching him to be polite without resorting to smacking.

Is it not to do with the fact that people tend to be treated with more respect than they used to in many other areas where naturally you would have bowed down to authority.

For example, employers used to say jump and employers would say how high. Ok you still have to follow procedure but you have some redress/comeback.

If you don't lkike a DRs opinion you ask for a second one or question it. Years ago you would have just done as you were told.

Arguing with MPs about what they should be entitled to rather than let them carry on on the gravy train.

I think children not just keeping quiet and automatically kowtowing to an adult is part of a wider enlightenment and feeling that each person has a valid right and opinion.

Anyway, I prefer it. I would never have argued with my gran, she would have walloped me and i WAS terrified of her. My dd can question me without that fear and humiliation.

Goblinchild I wonder about the "rights and responsibilities" thing in Primary school. I'm not sure that basically egocentric DCs "hear" the responsilbilities part of it.

I was scared of pain from a smack round the face, i was TERRIFIED at school if i did anything wrong they would tell my parents....i was terrified of getting hit for it.

I was scared of all adults tbh, in the 70's & 80's you just did as you were told...because oyu were told by an adult.

You don't have to do it with threats of violence.

You just have to give a little rumbly volcano hint in your otherwise stern-but-reasonable voice, telling the errant child that if the continue along this path, Mt Vesuvius might happen up their arse.