Learning at 4 years old ...actively taught or just absorbed .... sorry longish!

[bodiddly]

Leading on from a conversation the other day on here about learning letters and numbers ... do you actively teach your children things or do they pick them up as they go along? Ds has just turned 4 and is at nursery pretty much all day every day during the week where he appears to learn absolutely nada in this regard. I am sure he is learning plenty in terms of social interaction and fine motor skills etc but nothing concrete with writing his name or recognising letters and words. Most of the children I know that go to pre-school rather than private nursery are actively taught and presumably most of them learn. I have noticed that some of the children in his class at nursery can write their own names etc .... so I guess they must be learning them at home! I would not have a problem with this if I had more time every day that I could spend going through these things with him but he basically gets up, goes to school, comes home and goes to bed! When we were on holiday in Cornwall last year we obviously spent plenty of time with him doing puzzles etc ... but when he tried a puzzle today (after a while of not doing them at home) he was totally clueless .. and I do mean totally! Am I being a worry wart that needs to back off and let him be - I know that he will learn it at school anyway (assuming other children in his situation are just picking up information rather than their parents finding ways of teaching them with limited time!) or make sure that at weekends we make a special effort? As an extra aside .. I have read to him from a young age and he does love books!

hia, perhaps he's just not interested whereas other children are?

At the pre-school dd goes to they only really focus on them recognising their names and perhaps tracing over them the term before school - so that's about pencil control I think?

I've never done anything with mine at home and they've started school at different stages - none of them were able to read or write though - not even dd1!

Thats good to know Cargirl .. (hi by the way) I think I am feeling a bit guilty because I dont get the time to do these things and he is suffering as a consequence. He loves drawing and can draw recognisable houses, people, cars, flowers etc which seems ok .. (and a slightly less recognisable spiderman) and he seems to have a pretty good grip .. even for a leftie! He can recognise his name (I think). Maybe you are right - perhaps he isnt interested!

His drawing sounds very good!!!! dd can do her first letter and "a" that looks veyr much like a q and can't draw anything recognisable that I'm aware of. She will spend hours doing crafty stuff & is a leftie too.

Dd1 learnt to read much more quickly than the next 2 but I still left it all up to the school to do, there again she is a winter birthday so much older when she started anyway!

I think that I am really only raising this as ds had a card from his classmate who is 2 months older than him with her name signed in it .. 6 letters ... and the fact that his cousin who is not yet 3 can almost write her name! I don't think he is going to be amazingly bright so dont think I have particularly raised expectations .. just dont want to feel that we arent helping him enough!

He will be about 4.6 when he starts school!

The older the better tbh!!! Dd2 didn't learn to read until the November of year 1 but then flew through the levels, Dd3 has been even slower.

I think it is much more difficult for leftie to learn to write (as opposed to draw) - I have enough problems helping dd4 buttering bread left handed!

DD 3.9 started at school nursery in January. Since starting she has learnt to write her name, and now knows most of sounds in the alphabet. They do Jolly phonics at her school, and this is where she is picking it all up from.

I have resisted doing letters with her at home as I believe in learning through play, and see the value in role/exploratory play at this age.

Drawing is probably one of the best preparations for writing, as he will be learning how to hold a pencil, and gaining control. I can't see the value in pushing children to read/write until they are ready. They all do it at their own pace, as your DS will.

He's not suffering. Kids learn best when they are ready, and when he's ready he will pick things up really quickly believe me.

I felt ds1 didn't learn anything 'academic' the whole year he was at nursery school, and he was really slow to get into reading and writing even in Reception. But in Yr 1 it really clicked and now I know he not only can read whatever he feels like, but his handwriting is beautiful [proud mum alert ]

If you want some reading on the subject of how children learn, John Holt's books are inspirational.

My DS was very like yours except he didn't really discover drawing until the age of 6! He went to nursery to play with the trains and the cars and out in the garden. He was just a happy boy.

DD on the other hand went to nursery to glue, stick, dress up, tell stories, play on the computer, tell everybody about everything, and was so sociable.

DS (now 6) still can't read but is very good with numbers, on the PC, board games, is imaginative and is a lovely brother to his sisters. He loves being read to so has no motivation to try and read for himself. He's happy in himself and educationally his teacher isn't worried about him.

DD (5) on the other hand is storming along - bright as a button and grabbing the education offered to her.

They are just different children - just as the children at your DS's nursery will be very different from one another.

I think all the emphasis on SATs and nursery policies (while good in some respects) means that people forget just how little 4 and 5 year olds are most of the time.

mimizan .. that was the point I was making ... children at school-run nurseries seem to be taught these things - our nursery has been great in terms of childcare and sociability etc but not so great in terms of learning!

my ex step mother is a child minder and said that she would be quite shocked if she had a child in her care that was 4 and didnt know numbers and letters!

There is a big danger though of nurseries teaching them stuff. DD1 did jolly phonics at pre-school and then in reception they did them again!!!!!!!!!!!! Pre-school no longer do them as they do them at school again.

Sounds like you have chosen a fab nursery. If he was showing more interest they would probably teaching him stuff as it all has to be child led under EYFS anyway.

car girl .. you just made me think of another question when you mentioned dd4 and buttering bread .. at what age do dcs usually know how to cut up their dinner properly?

Im not really concerned about school as we managed to get the one we wanted and it has great Ofsted reports. I am a little freaked though to be honest as I went to private school and had classes of 10-15 children at primary school level - I cant imagine my active 4 1/2 year old ds sitting politely and learning with 30 other children! Still, I guess that is what the teachers and TAs are are there for!

well the near 7 year old sometimes needs help with meat and very crispy roast potatoes and often when extra hungry (she's always at the very least a little bit hungry) just stuffs it down as quick as possible. She's ace at making her own toast.

5.5 year old regularly needs help with meat

3.5 year old we usually end up cutting up most things apart from soft veg like brocolli, she will give it a good try on the days when she's not unwell or tired IYSWIM She always tries to cut her sandwiches but she can't doesn't have the strength and action.

thanks CG - ds is given his food already cut up at nursery and I have been in the habit of doing the same most of the time at home so that I can get on with eating my own meal without constant interruption. I think it is something I need to change - I know he can do it with some soft things but I think I probably do too much for him!

Im thinking what other developmental questions I can ask you CG whilst I have you here!

He might like the ABC section on starfall.com which teaches letter sounds through animations.

If it makes you feel better dd went for a 2nd speech assessment this week, her core words haven't improved in 8.5 months fortunately she can make all the sounds so it's just a case of her unlearning everything and relearning it correctly

She was taught (I think) to put her own coat on at pre-school - she puts the hood on and then puts her arms in and she sometimes tries to do the zip up.

She can't skip yet, 5.5 year old has recently learnt that I think.

Mmm, I see what you mean. From my own experience FWIW, I have 3 DC. The first DC skipped school nursery and joined the school in reception, therefore missing out on the Jolly Phonics preparation. The other 2 both went to school nursery. DS1 was definitely later to become a free reader than DS2, and I think they are very equal in terms of intelligence.

However DS1 was under less pressure to read/write and just had freedom to play. When do you ever get that opportunity again? DS1 is now 9 and has caught up with his peers who did all the phonics learning at 3.5. A love of reading and learning in general is the most important thing to foster, and it sounds like you are doing plenty of that with your DS.

She can't wipe her own bum properly yet either, but she does seem to have a very deep crack IYSWIM - I find it quite tricky to get it clean. Lots of skiddy pants when she starts school I think . She does try and do it but I got fed up of dirty pants.

Still hates having her hair washed and getting her face wet - they have swimming lessons at school! She's almost phobic about it.

thanks mimizan .. I guess he will catch up at some point then and find his own level. It is horrible though to feel that he may start behind the others.

othersideofthechannel .. thanks I will check out that site! He was given a leapster for his birthday from a friend of mine and I am hoping that the dora game may help him recognise some numbers and letters.

Cargirl ... good to hear that dd does know all the sounds etc but sorry to hear about the whole re-learning thing! ds learned the montessori coat trick when he was about 18 months old .. its a fantastic way of teaching them to do it themselves and we have since taught it to a fair few other people. He has just learned how to do the zip up himself though (most of the time). He is rubbish about getting the rest of himself dressed though - he is capable of most of it (probably round the wrong way) but no good at socks! We are so rushed in the mornings that I end up having to help him. We are up at 6.15 and out the door before 7am - it doesnt leave much time for dawdling! Im not sure if he can skip - hadnt thought about that one!

Re food, my DD is 4.6 (just missed starting school last year).

Apparently the manager of her nursery told her a few weeks ago she was 'lazy' for not cutting up her own roast potatoes .

I have since gone a bought her a proper set of children's cutlery (ie metal grown-up style but smaller) and am trying to leave her to it but TBH, I find I often still cut stuff up as it helps it cool down before she eats it.

From a literacy/numeracy point of view, she is pretty advanced, but even when I was working (made redundant last summer), she always showed a lot of interest off her own back and until she was 3 was looked after by DH and grans while I was at work, so had a lot of 1-2-1 attention to support that, especially from my mum.

I think the nursery mainly do the alphabet and name recognition type stuff, which has definitely helped her.

At the end of the day they are going to school to learn all this stuff, so I shouldn't worry. If there are things he's not as interested in/good at, he'll no doubt make up for them in other areas.

Same here about the bum wiping .. he is rubbish at it .. only seems to wipe the outside! They dont go with them to the loo at nursery so we already have the grim pants! We had serious problems with him for years about hair washing and face wetting. We have now found a way with the hair washing but the face wetting is still a bit of an issue. I am going to start taking him swimming on a more regular basis soon though. We did start a few times last year but then he broke his arm which put pay to it for a while .. and I havent got back to it yet!

My youngest (just 3.5) will now only use adult cutlery..........she's very keen to be as old as the others - argh!

Roast potatoes - it completely depends on their consistency and sometimes we have to tell the 6 year old "today they're easy to cut" as she often assumes she can't do them before trying as sometimes they are too tricky to do.

I'm trying to think what the important things are in reception.......