6 year old - is this normal? i really need your help pls.

[1SadMummy]

Please please help as I have totally reached rock bottom with my 6 yo ds.

From the age of 2 he has refused to take me seriously if I tell him off - it started with him kicking me in the stomach every time I changed him (while I was pg with dd) and he just laughs if I get angry.

Now, at 6, he is much better but still awful. If I need to stand and talk to someone, pay in a shop, whatever, he is incapable of just standing quietly next to me. he gets totally giddy and silly and behaves like a much younger child. This goes on every single week. Today a friend popped round and because i was talking to her he ran round and round the garden, in the snow, with no shoes on. I lost my temper when I got him inside and he was packed off to bed early and told not to get out of bed (every single night he is out of bed about 15 times). He has so far been out of bed 5 times tonight already, smacked every time and still gets out of bed. we have tried everything - reasoning, taking away toys/treats/days out, shouting, smacking, crying (me) and nothing helps. I really do think there is something wrong with him but he is fine at school so is it just me?

SadMummy I've read this thread with interest as I too battle with a challenging ds of 5. I liked Leo's general approach to parenting but really disagreed with what she said about you "locking horns". As I read, I was thinking how reasoned and open your responses were - I just wanted you to know that.

I also want to say that I think you are a great mum. I'm not saying it lightly or to cheer you up:I'm also a SAHM and the list of things you do with your ds had me gobsmacked. It's so, so hard to be present and loving and interested and engaged all the time - well, it's hard for me. Well done for the way you are parenting, and your thoughtful approach to it all. Your dc's are lucky to have you.

Things have improved between me and my DS recently and I'm offering what worked for me in the hope that it will help you. Please just ignore the following if it doesn't feel right for your situation. Also, this should come with a major psycho-babble warning. Again, please ignore if it's not your thing.

So here goes:

Given all that you have tried to implement I think it's safe to say that it's not working, and that your DS is not going to change: YOU have to change. When I say you are the grownup I don't mean to sound at all critical or patronising. I mean that it sounds as though you are in the place I was in: basically scared of the little boy you love, and try so hard to parent well. Scared because you have no faith is his, or your, ability to control his behaviour when you are out together, or in company. It's awful -I've been there often and to an extent, am still there.

But if I am right, then your child is more frightened than you are. It's terrifying for him, too, to feel that Mummy is scared and so he pushes harder and harder and acts more and more wildly to find the boundary, the point where Mummy will contain him and he can feel safe.

So that's what I mean when I say you are the grown up. You have to find a way to decide deep, deep inside your self that you WILL NOT allow this behaviour. Forget the charts and rewards and punishments: all that counts is that you really do believe yourself, and believe in your own authority. Until you believe yourself, he won't believe you. I could only get to this point with a lot of support, mainy from my DP and my best friend. If you can't believe in your own authority (as I couldn't/can't) then keep seeking help until you can: your DH, your family, your friends, therapy, counselling, books, parenting courses....just decide you will do what it takes, and won't stop till you have found a way to believe that you CAN HELP your ds. Keep reminding himself that his six, that he is a little boy and that you are still his universe: you can fix this for him and for you.

I would have sought counselling or therapy if I could, but I am in a third world country with very limited resources. But I needed, and need, all the support I can get.

Please believe me that I empathise strongly with you, and that I have spent/do spend a lot of time feeling awful about exactly the issues that are bothering you. I'll watch this with interest to see if there are any tips I can pick up. Good luck and hang in there: there are a lot of us in the same position.

Thank you so, so much worriermum. I cannot tell you how much your kind words mean to me - but I am crying again!

I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying and I do think that you have hit the nail right on the head. He obviously respects his teacher's authority - I've even asked him 'You wouldn't do that to Mrs X, would you?' and he says 'No'. I also fully take on that he needs to know the boundaries in order to help him.

The hard part now of course is working on getting to that point, but just to know that there might be a solution is fantastic.

I will re-read your post again later - bit hard at the mo as I am crying a lot now - but thank you again

I think you're right, worrier, that it's about lack of authority, and that it is vital to find that soon, while he is still young. Since you are obviously thinking hard and reading widely, OP, maybe you do need some outside help or guidance. You sound open to that.

Two other things occur to me - though I don't know how helpful they are to you. One is to wonder whether you have ever had an authoritative role (at work?) which can give you skills to draw on. And the other is to say that, no, this behaviour is not normal/acceptable. I have 2 DSs not much older than yours, which I think gives me some idea.

Good luck

Thanks, Grammaticus. I used to have what some people would call a high flying job, and I do a bit of amateur dramatics, so I will try to think myself into a more authoritative frame of mind. If that doesn't work then I supoose something like NLP might help?

This will sound so, so stupid but I do remember telling him off when he was about 2 or so and as he looked into my eyes I couldn't help but giggle. He has such gorgeous eyes and I love him so much.

Am I losing my marbles or does he remember this and that's why he's never taken me seriously? Saying that, he's not a great deal better with dh (the calm, quiet type iyswim).

I am so glad that it felt helpful: as I said, I see myself in you.

Sorry, that bit in my earlier post should have read: "Keep reminding yourself that HE is six" ...but hopefully you got the drift anyway.

SM, one thing I forgot to say is that in my case it was very helpful to stop getting angry. I realised that one of the reasons it was so hard to set real boundaries was that I felt guilty for being in a sort-of permanent rage ( ). Feels awful even to type it, but it was/is true and it's better to face that. And the sad thing is that what helped me to stop feeling so angry was not all my agonising and hard work and endless resolutions: it was just feeling less alone and isolated, more supported, less desperate. Again, I mention it in case it applies to you too.

Also, the change, when it comes, won't be instant or simple. But if you hang on to your resolve that this will be fixed, then after about a week something will feel better, and then success slowly - very slowly- and subtly builds on itself.

Again, the very best of luck.

Thanks again, worriermum - I do feel as if I have failed miserably every time I shout, and hate myself for it.

Support, other than dh, is not available: both my parents are dead and we live far away from all family. If I try to talk to friends they just politely say 'he's not that bad', but they don't see the bulk of the behaviour.

Thank you

Think you're doing a really good job with your ds; and don't be too hard on yourself. I find it interesting that your ds plays up in public - does your son have any embarrassment factor? Could he stand up in front of his class and speak unfazed for instance?

In answer to your previous question, I've read 123 Magic which basically is calm, non-confrontational counting with a significant pause for the child to reflect and stop whatever misbehaviour they're involved in. When/if you get to 3 the consequence takes place, e.g quiet time in his bedroom. It works if you have too many parenting styles in place, have lost control completely or in the case of my ds he gets so enraged that he can't hear to be reasoned with. It's simple and doesn't take up much emotional energy. But we try to balance it too, as you sound like you do, with empathy, acknowledging his feelings and plenty of cuddles too.

Message withdrawn

In a different direction entirely, but do you think am dram or stage school at the weekend might be good for your ds?

Hi

Before I start I would like to point out that I am fairly 'crap' mum and have done a fair share of shouting ect in the the past particularly with DS1 who has extensive SN and was pretty challenging when small (he's lovely now!).

Right - I've got my teacher hat on now and it used to amaze me that I could control a class of 30 15 year olds but my own son could turn round and laugh at me when I had just told him off in a way that would reduce said class of 30 to trembling jelly.

I would say that your son does sound a bit shall we say exhuberant. All 6 year old boys are daft at various points and you need to think are their flashpoints of daftness, ie, is it mainly when his sister is around or other children or people (this seems to be what comes across in your posts). A year 9 I teach is lovely on a one to one but put him near one other particular boy and he turns into this ravening lunatic and no sense or reasoning seems to get through. The only way we survive the two of them together is to keep them apart as much as humanly possible and stamp on anything small the minute it starts.

One thing that might work is some social stories. These are used to help children on the autistic spectrum and those with speech and langauge disorders understand their situations. I am not suggestion for one minute that your son is on the spectrum BUT the strategy is a useful one because it means you can 'pre teach' certain situations. I am not an expert on writing these (there are mums on the sn board who are much more of an authority than me) and clearly you can write and use far more complex language and situations than ones you might find as examples if you google because he is bright etc etc.

so: On Saturday Toby and Emma are going to buy new shoes with mum. Toby needs new shoes because his are falling to bits and Emma needs new shoes because her feet have grown.

In the shoe shop Toby and emma meet a nice person who measures their feet and mum and Toby pick out some shoes. There are three different pairs to try on. Toby puts on the first pair and walks up and down the shop so tht the lady can tell if they fit. She can only tell if they fit if Toby walks up and down sensibly. Toby really likes these shoes and decides he wants them. The lady feels round his feet and they are fine. Then Emma tries on her shoes. Toby has to sit still. He has taken a book with him to read while Emma and mum are busy. Toby is so amazing that Mum gives him 10 dolly mixtures and Emma gets 10 too because she was really good. Mum is so happy and isn't stressy at all. Toby and Emma say goodbye to the nice lady and they all go home for biscuits and watch TV.

Sorry - it all sounds a bit facile but you can soup it up a bit. I used to make up stories about 'a naughty boy called Bill' who was 'soooooo naughty that. . .'. Then Bill morphed into a 'good prince called Bill' who had amazing adventures with dragons etc. I just think your son doesn't seem to 'know' what to do or how to handle social situations except in the role of 'clown' and it is now on the level of 'learned behaviour' ie, this is what he does. By pre empting the behaviour and giving him strategies to cope in certain situations, ie, your friend is coming round - plan what you are going to do. He might get out of it.

But it's all very tricky and you have my every sympathy. It's bloody hard and you are doing really well. One thing I would ask is how commanding is your voice? That may be something to work on as well. When you say 'no' - you could whisper it but its how you say it and the look you give - does every fibre in your body mean 'no'. Any sense that you are going to melt and he will see that. Dunno whether this is any use and sorry it is so long.

All the best.

Hi
This is my first time so hope I don't screw up.
Have joined mumsnet for advice of a different nature but I got reading your thread and it was reassuring and heartbreaking at the same time.
Haven't got any advice re your son because I am far from a perfect mother and don't have the answers.
However, when I am at the end of my tether with my two the thing that makes it worse is looking around and thinking every other parent does it so much better. Then you feel a complete failure and all your plans to be the best mum ever have failed to materialize and you worry that its your fault you child is going to grow up to be a psycho.
Only I found something out. Maybe there are some annoying perfect parents out there but this isn't stepford wives. Most of us have problems. It is damn hard and you need help and support at the moment. Make sure your friends and family know you are struggling and make sure YOU get some TLC. With love and support you will be stronger and you will cope and your son will be wonderful.
Good luck.

Hi Sad Mummy, I have just found this thread and it is really reassuring to me to see that other people have lively 6 year olds too! Sorry, I am not trying to diminish the problems. it is just that at times, you wonder if your son is normal, and then you meet or read about other kids the same and relaise they are totally normal lovely boys. With all this energy they are going to be the movers and shakers of the future!

I identify very much with flying mummuy (I was a teacher in a previous life)and with worriermum. My ds is very lively and can do many of the things you have mentioned. A few things that have helped me:

1. boys between 4 and 6 are very physical in their response and this is normal (but no reason that they shouldn't be learning the boundaries and that it isn't an appropriate response) so when ds hits me or dd, this is because he is a boy and aged 6. That helps me to back off and take it less personally, so that I can respond calmly, and deal with it calmly.
2. My Mum always says, you can be a perfect parent, following all the books, but that will not mean that your children are good. Children do bad/silly stuff because they are children. The thing to remember is that how you react is the difference between good and bad parenting skills.
3. We used to smack. Recently we realised we were doing it more and more, and I was shouting more and more because I was so frustrated, and the result was he was getting more and more aggressive and angry. Also at 6 he is too old for smacking. So we have deliberatly stopped smacking, and decided not to shout (it is killing me to keep to it, but its good) and to express our anger in the way we want him to express his anger, ie, by speaking to him, telling him what the problem is, and telling him what we expect to happen now. We have done what worrier mum talked about with taking authority too, we have decided which behaviours we will and won't accept.
4. We use time out mainly when he is angry and needs to calm down. I have introduced a zero tolerance for certain things. I ask once, second ask is a warning, third ask looses a toy or priviledge. (very, very calm, no drama or confrontation) This has worked well, especially as we tell him that it is his choice, I ask, he chooses whether or not to do it, he knows the consequences.

Certain things have set consequences, this means no drama, spur of the moment punishments. Consequences are things like, loosing a toy, loosing bed time story, loosing video time. If he hits his sister when they are playing, he immediately looses the right to play that game and has to find something else to do. (as well as needing to apologise)

These sound like we have a lot of punishments, but really, it has taken the "locked horns" out of things, because the consequences are consistent. Since we stopped smacking and shouting I have noticed a big improvement, and our house is calmer and he is calmer.

I totally agree though with some of the comments about letting him be daft, and that 6 year olds are silly, and it is ok that he does daft things. They need to be able to do stupid stuff (like maybe run around in the snow?) and learn for themselves that it is stupid. I also find that my ds needs to run around outside for at least an hour a day, and we live where the outside temperature right now is -15 when he comes home from school, and he wraps up and goes and plays on the ice slides for and hour and then is much, much more sociable (back to 6 year olds being very physical)

I liked flying mums social stories, I find that talking through a situation in advance, and reminding my kids how they should behave works well.

I am not sure there is much here that is new, I hope something helps, don't think you area bad mum because you have a bad day (or even a lot of bad days) you don't have to be perfect, just "good enough" and you are certainly that, or else you wouldn't be posting here, trying to find new strategies.

Hello everyone

I don't have much time tonight but I just wanted to say thank you so much for all the fantastic advice on here. It'll take me some time to think about it all properly but you have given me so much hope and encouragement.

Today was a much much better today - ds was brilliant and went to bed, no problem at all. You need a day like that when it's been so bad, just to reassure you that there is hope!

I will post back once I have had time to go through all your advice, but in the meantime thank you .

1sadmummy, just returned to this thread to see how your getting on. Did you see my link

"have you heard of the Dore Programme?
www.dore.co.uk/

I know a family who used it to help behaviour problems, i'm not suggesting your DS has special needs but it may be of interest."

Having read more of this thread I would really look into it.

Thanks, hytter. Yes, I did look at it but my ds would appear to have very few of the sypmtoms which they list. Will look at it again and check I am being completely honest with myself.

His main problem seems to be when anyone else enters the picture. I would be quite happy to let him run around in the snow barefoot but this is a child whom I have never seen greet people normally. So when my friend popped in, with her slightly older children whom he knows and has played with, then instead of interacting with them he grabbed the cat and did the most outrageous, attention-seeking thing he could. In shops he will jump up and down, spouting gibberish, even though I do, as Leo recommends, get him involved (he presses the buttons when I pay by card). His 'most normal' response when he meets people (new or old acquaintances) is to say nothing. As I said, he didn't even greet his best friend last week, just ran off into a cupboard which we had screwed shut because we know if he goes in there he could fall through the ceiling.

I think you may suspect he may be slightly autistic, hytter - the lack of social skills and the intense ocncentration on other areas - and I am fully prepared to accept that he may be somewhere on the autistic scale so please do not worry about offending me! I know very little about autism but he doesn't seem to have any other symptoms (tidiness certainly isn't a factor!!!).

I am rambling a bit now but my best guess at the moment is that he has a problem with his social skills and that my parenting has not been very effective. I do have fun and play with both my dc (dd hardly gets a look in here!) but, as I said, ds is perpetually in this unreachable, giddy state when other people are around. Perhaps I have actually given them too much of my time, been too accessible and they are unused to 'sharing' me, but dd has confidence and social skills way beyond her years. And dd sat quietly in the car that day while ds diced with death on the road .

Forgot to add - when he is not in 'giddy' mode, he is fantastic, and a joy to be with and talk to.

Just working through the earlier postings:

steppemum - brr! Ice slides! Thank you for your support. I'm glad you are making progress. We're lucky that ds has never been violent (except taking his frustration out on his door if I send him to his room), but we do use consequences, often with absolutely no effect At times he has missed his favourite weekly activity for several wekes on end because of his behaviour.

flyingmum could not believe my luck when I saw there was a teacher on the thread! Working very hard on my authority, and the social stories is a fab idea which I am putting into use immediately - thank you.

whitejude Welcome to MN! I've been on here several years but have namechanged for this thread. Thank you very much for your compassion and support

heated he would clam up entirely at drama school and has a very limited range of interests (more evidence on the autistic side, I think) but I like your thinking. You say 1-2-3 magic is good for people who have too many parenting styles in place, and I think I might just qualify ! Am ordering my copy today Re the embarrassment factor, he's not the first to put himself forward to speak but he has spoken to his class (about trains!) but when we are out and about and he gets giddy, I don't think anything would reach him. It is almost like a trance.

I just read the thread
The things that Leo suggested may work with a laid back child, but somethings are unacceptable. It is not acceptable for a child to run around in traffic when he was told to stay in the car.
I really don't know what to say, but I would probably go see a psychologist - seems that he gets quite anxious when around other people? Maybe at bedtime he has trouble shutting his mind off - again, could be anxiety.
Thats what I would do.

'Relax and bend'- the best bits of advice you can gain from this thread.

'Giddy' is referred to as being a negative thing on this thread.

In my house it is a positive.........

So, that is the key - it depends on your expectations. And unfortunately, if you have a 'giddy' one, then you have to come to a compromise.

Thanks, purpleduck - I would be open to having him assessed but I know dh would most definitely not want it.

Givepeasachance if relaxing and bending means letting your child run around in traffic, then no, I don't want to relax and bend. I can only assume that you have not been in the same situations as I have, or you would show more compassion.

Am reading all this with interest!

Hi there, Dottoressa! Just wanted to let you know I have an enduring mental image of your ds being extra helpful in the shops when dolly mixtures were added to the equation

Well you would presume wrong

That said, IIWY (or if you can persuade DH) I would look into getting him assessed (privately if you cannot face the wait/fight) as the inability to formulate appropriate responses in social situations or associate cause and effect (and therefore respond to discipline) sound remarkably like a child I know who has been assessed as being on the spectrum (ASD, FWIW, but that is just the nearest fit in terms of 'labels')

Hi

What does the school say? Is he daft in the playground or in groups? Does he have friends - ie, does he get invited round to people's houses do you get pestered to have people back? If the school brings up problems then ask to have him assessed by an eucational psychologist who should see him indivdiaully but also in the classroom setting. Be warned this might all take some time!

I would have to say that to have to lock a cupboard because of something he is doing is not 'normal'. It is really difficult coming to terms with a child who is to all intents and purposes absolutely 'fine' just has some 'quirkiness' about them (I think quirky is good - my eldest does quirky very well!) but once you are having to significantly change what you are doing to adapt to those quirks (like me not being able to use the washing machine during the day when DS1 decided aged 5 that he was terrified of it) then that points to a 'something'. Dads do seem generally to have real difficulty coming to terms with the idea that their bundle of joy isn't 'perfect'. This also goes for other family members who will come out with things like 'if he watched less videos', 'do you think you need to be firmer with him' (if I had been any more firm with my eldest I'd have been done for child abuse). You need to develop a thickish skin and be sure and certain on your course.

If, however, the school don't think there are any problems at all (and generally if he was driving them potty and other children then they would have let you know by now) then it may be some learned behaviour that he does when you are around. Is it worth thinking back to possible triggers? Did you get rushed into hospital unexpectedly to have your daughter? was there any trauma surronding this or another event in his early development? I don't want to get involved in any psycho babble but it may be that his anxiety around change in social situations stems from something that no one could have predicted. It could be that he is just shy and doesn't 'know what to do' when meeting people so goes hyper because people do laugh. If he does it at school his peers undoubtably find it engaging and funny so may be adults will as well. He sounds very bright so you will be able to teach him the right way to react and you have caught it early - believe me I've got a load of year 7s that behave like this all the time!

I think you seem to be doing pretty well and just as my son's pathalogical fear of washing machines passed, he may well calm down and grow out of this high level of anxiety.

All the best.