6 year old - is this normal? i really need your help pls.

[1SadMummy]

Please please help as I have totally reached rock bottom with my 6 yo ds.

From the age of 2 he has refused to take me seriously if I tell him off - it started with him kicking me in the stomach every time I changed him (while I was pg with dd) and he just laughs if I get angry.

Now, at 6, he is much better but still awful. If I need to stand and talk to someone, pay in a shop, whatever, he is incapable of just standing quietly next to me. he gets totally giddy and silly and behaves like a much younger child. This goes on every single week. Today a friend popped round and because i was talking to her he ran round and round the garden, in the snow, with no shoes on. I lost my temper when I got him inside and he was packed off to bed early and told not to get out of bed (every single night he is out of bed about 15 times). He has so far been out of bed 5 times tonight already, smacked every time and still gets out of bed. we have tried everything - reasoning, taking away toys/treats/days out, shouting, smacking, crying (me) and nothing helps. I really do think there is something wrong with him but he is fine at school so is it just me?

Ok - with the walking in a silly way in the shoes, the assistant just gives the best guess she can as to fit and you shrug your shoulders, ruffle his hair and say "I love you, you goofy boy" Why on earth is that a problem?

Also, with the kicking you thing, again I think your approach is unecessarily punitive; I think you need to be more pragmatic; think ways round things; for instance you could have tried pull up nappies so that he was changed standing up. Most of the time IME it is all about finding ways that work, rather than rigidly imposing one way.

You need to find much more of a sense of humour I think in your dealings with him.

Likewise you have to deal with the reality rather than what you WISH the reality was; yes he gets lots of your time and that should be enough BUT he clearly needs more in-put of some kind to help him stay in bed etc, and if that's sitting with him when he drops off for a bit, that could be fine if you let it. It won't be forever, nothing is with kids.

At the moment you are making him your enemy it seems to me and that's so sad and such a waste of all your time.

And the car thing; again, it's about your expectations. No WAY would my 6 yr old ds sit happily in the car while I talked to someone; he would want to be part of it, in the thick of it, involved! You can get around this sort of thing by simply saying "oh look ds it's so and so lets go and talk to her"!!!

Oh and finally I'm aware I sound rather accusing but it's late and I want to get straight to brass tacks because you and your kids sound lovely but it seems so clear that you are walking deeper and deeper into a rut, and if you could only 'hop up' to a different path, it would be so much happier all round

I disagree Leo - he is not my enemy and I spend a big chunk of each day ruffling his hair and telling him he is the loveliest boy in the whole world and I love him so, so much. We have a game we play where we try to outdo each other with how much we love each other - 'bigger than the universe etc.'

You seem to be saying nothing should ever be tackled and any behaviour should be accepted. I do think it is not unreasonable to expect a 6 year old who is asked nicely 'Please sit there for one minute while I talk to Jane' to do that, rather than running out in front of traffic.

Am I the only one who thinks that? really didn't think I could feel any worse than i did but I do now

oh dear! The examples I have given I hope are about showing that parenting is mostly about finding ways that work rather than senselessly pursuing things that don't. Often things DON'T need to be dealt with, just got round!

Of course there are times that behaviour needs stopping and a boundary enforced, but for me, no, I'm sorry, not in the examples you have given TBH.

No, for some kids it would not be unreasonable to be asked nicely to sit still while you talk. For my ds, and obviously for yours, that is not possible because they much more would prefer to be involved in some way. So there is absolutely no point in making a mountain out of a molehill about it, just because some kids would be more biddable. that's what I mean about being pragmatic.

In answer to your OP, yes, your DS's behaviour is completely normal for six years old.

Well if I had taken him out of the car with me to talk to my friend then he would have been running around in traffic a lot longer than he was (because he will not stand stil l with me)- at least doing it my way there were a few moments when he was clambering over the seat before he actually got into the traffic

Sorry havent read the whole thread, but it sounds like you might get a better result if you choose your battles, everything he seems to be doing is attebtion seeking, but in a totally innappropriate way, I would ignore the silliness when talking to friends, i would have definitely ignored the running in the snow barefoot. Try to make sure you dont react to situations the way you might think your friends think you should react...do what you feel is right.

Then perhaps it wasn't safe to stop just then, if there was no safe way of doing it?

I'll bow out because clearly you're in a locked horns position here which you're unprepared to come out of. I know you will not want to hear this, but THAT is why you are having such problems.

Yup, thanks a bundle Leo. Will remember never to stop to talk to anyone when my ds is in the car.

Finally, I just wanted to say that I've just re-read the whole thread and it really is shining out clearly WHY you are having these problems. I am truly not saying this to make you sad but to help. You do IMO need to bend more and lock horns less - just on this thread you have shown an unwillingness to bend and have locked horns with me instead of responding to the points on which you could have truly changed approach; after all, your current approach is not working so why not try another?

As an objective outsider, it IS clear from this thread why you are where you are and I say that purely from a desire to help and answer your original question though I am SURE it won't be taken that way!

Not sure I agree with your advice here Leo - you seem to be insistent that the OP just let things go when she is obviously unhappy with her DS disruptive behavior and has tried many options already. Sorry to butt in but I feel that it is a little ridiculous to have to stop life in its tracks to accommodate and accept his difficult behavior, the op has a daughter too. I am sorry I have no answers 1sm other than you sound like a really lovely Mum.

I'm sure you are trying to help, Leo, but you are the only person I have disagreed with and I have said I will try some of the suggestions (those that I haven't already tried).

If I didn't want help why would I post here?

And - I am sure this won't be taken the way it's meant - if you cannot get your 6yo to sit still either, as you say, then maybe you don't have the answers I need anyway.

Anyway, you have completely succeeded in making me feel 100 times worse so will go now.

OMG CRUSH - THANK YOU!

I know I do things wrong but I try so so hard.

God I am really crying now.

sadmum

I sympathise with you

To me.your ds sounds hard worl - relentless hard work and you are trying to get an angle on it

re the shoe shop incident i do NOT agree with leo9 comment ' ruffle his hair and say "I love you, you goofy boy" Why on earth is that a problem? ' Not appropriate at all

I would say to ds 'Peter (!) you are too old to be behaving like this. If you dont want new shoes then let's go and you can wear the ones with holes in - otherwise stand up , start walking properly and lets get home'

I think you need to regain control...have the courage to follow through disciplines. Cut out tv if he is naughty. Mean it and do it. Its hard at first but soon pays dividends.

To my untrained mind your son sounds everr so slightly ADD have you ever thought this or am i being out of line?

I think some of the posts on here to be harsh and unreasonable to a poster asking for help

You should be enjoying your little boy - he should not be making you unhappy. Dont beat yourself up about it...take small but FIRM steps to regain control

You and dh need to be TOTALLY united in your front. If you disagree - do it away from 6 yr old ears

please dont cry sadmummy - keep asking for help and in no time you wont feel sad any more!

Thank you Ria. ADD or similar had crossed my mind but he can sit for hours doing beautifully detailed drawings of trains so I had discounted that (rightly or wrongly!). He seems to me to be very very young for his age but I don't know if that's just him.

Dh and I are totally united and he (dh) is fab - I do not think I could cope if we were not.

I am probably making ds sound much worse than he really is - he is also a very kind, gentle loving boy.

Thank you very much to you & all who have given me kind words and helpful suggestions. Will buy the dolly mixtures tomorrow, draw up some new reward charts, take a deep breath and start again

I'm glad you are feeling like starting afresh 1sad...

I wanted to say that (in case it helps when deciding what you think of what was said) that no, my ds wouldn't want to sit still alone in the car while I spoke to someone and yes I would let him come with me to do so; I don't see that as a problem or inappropriate in any way

My ds is beautifully behaved, very mannerly and gentlemanly, which has always been mentioned glowingly in his school reports; funnily enough just yesterday a friend of dh's who had not met DS before, was saying with utter disbelief just how good, and polite DS was

Just one suggestion, you are a SAHM and he is with you all the time when not at school, but are you making sure you spend a lot of time just with him - not with him alone, I mean, just being with him but not doing other things or trying to direct what he should be doing? Is it possible that the little rituals about talking about how much you love each other have become just words, and more time simply carrying out the act of choosing to be with him could be even more powerful?

I have had some experience in a similar situation and making the effort to spend a lot of time just with mine did help. Being stuck in a situation where repeated punishment isn't working is also what I had. What helped a bit was stepping back a bit and picking which were the things we really wouldn't budge on, and temporarily letting a lot of other things go or working round them to avoid them happening.

For instance no one would say you shouldn't stop the car to speak to a friend in general, but it might really help you to choose not to do this for a month or two, say, and to pick some other things you can also evade or tolerate for a while, but all the time focusing on one or two main things and saving punishment purely for them. Then you can add the other behaviour goals back in gradually.

So if I were you I would focus on getting out of the rut of constant threats, warnings and punishments, mainly by saving those only for one or two key things. Then at the same time try spending extra time even just sitting at a table with him while he does something, without doing anything else yourself - just showing that you want to be with him - and also giving loads of praise whenever things go well (low key but genuine - a quiet thanks for doing something rather than anything effusive).

Watch out for the situation where this works well and you stop the worst behaviours but then find yourself wanting to use those punishments for the next worst behaviours too soon - I think you need a period of time where you're praising him a lot for having not done certain things (or done more positive alternatives) before you switch the 'top punishments' to the next behaviours down (if you ever do - you may find you don't need to if his attention-seeking has calmed down a bit by thne) - get him feeling good about how he's managing his own behaviour - does that make sense?

I would stop smacking full stop too, because it clearly isn't working at the moment even when repeated five times, and it is quite an extreme punishment. I would reread How To Talk So Kids Will Listen, too.

Hope this helps, your situation does sound a bit like mine.

and how is that helpful leo9

It sounds a tricky one and there is nothing so infuriating as a silly little boy (tell me about it- I've got one!). A couple of things spring to mind:

1. do you also have times when you speak to him as a grown-up? discuss things that you're interested in? talk about a book you've read or some local news? ask his opinion? (naturally when he is not in a naughty mood.)

I am finding walking ds to school is a great time to talk.

I find those of my friends whose children are the silliest are the ones who never speak to them in a serious grown-up way. No doubt, it is partly because their children are silly and young for their age, but I was just wondering if it can be possible to make some difference to behaviour

2. smacking signals loss of control- so not a good idea in your case. It might work (just) with a 3yo, but at 6 you should both be growing out of it.

3. "he ran off giggling into my room and hid in the wardrobe because, as he said, he knew I'd be cross. So I shouted"

read through this sentence again. He wanted something and you provided. He is treating you like a one-man circus show. Be in charge. Look mildly irritated and slightly bored and tell him off in a deep calm voice. It's not about ignoring bad behaviour, it's about how to respond in an impressive way. Pretend you're his headteacher. Good heads don't usually scream and smack; they exude authority (practise in front of the mirror).

For the shoe shop situation (or the bus or the queue in the supermarket)- you need to start before you get there. Strike up a conversation about something interesting - evolution, piranhas, pirates - to keep you both interested and occupied. If it's the shoe shop you are heading for, then make it foot related. Try to make him forget about the power struggle.

I am sure you are great at loving talk, but you also need to make space for neutral conversation, particularly in situations that might otherwise cause a lot of tension.

"My ds is beautifully behaved, very mannerly and gentlemanly, which has always been mentioned glowingly in his school reports; funnily enough just yesterday a friend of dh's who had not met DS before, was saying with utter disbelief just how good, and polite DS was"

Yes, I expect mothers of all difficult children find that they are perfect when they want to be (my DS is, apparently, a model pupil, and is regularly complimented by strangers on his politeness). However, it doesn't change the day-to-day problems.

A sense of humour is indeed a must - but I think, Leo, you underestimate the humour- and energy-draining aspect of dealing with a very difficult child on a daily basis. In some ways, being a SAHM is particularly hard in this situation - there is very little respite from it all. It's also tough when you have other children who also need attention, as the OP evidently does.

1sad - I have no real solutions, but you do have my sympathy!

As a matter of interest, what's the age gap between yours? My DS was always difficult, but his behaviour is far worse when DD (2 years younger) is around - jealousy plus his personality is a potent mix. I could have written what you wrote about them being fine on their own and a pair of horrors together! (Hence the dolly mixtures... )

Hello all

Yes, Dottoressa - the gap is 2 years exactly.

I feel I must point out (although I'm reluctant to disagree with anyone after that was seen as me 'locking horns' - what a lovely expression) that days like yesterday are, thankfully, few. It doesn't usually get that bad. Most days I can ignore the silliness, and I do. But yes, Dottoressa, it does wear you down, when you cannot do anything with your ds in tow. I am on a constant knife edge when I take him out. He nnoys other children and does not seem to realise that he's doing so. He seems to go into almost a trance when he's being really silly, and I struggle to even get him to respond to me. His eyes roll up and he giggles furiously. Not every day, but that is the potential when I take him anywhere or anyone else comes to the house.

Just last week his best friend came to tea and ds's instant reaction was not to go play, or talk to his friend, but to go and hide in the water boiler cupboard, almost crashing thruogh the kitchen ceiling. I cannot relax.

I take the point about making time to actively be with him and I have noticed (as I said before) that when we are out together just the 2 of us, he's fantastic. We have breakfast together and we talk; travel to school by car and we talk; I pick him up and we talk: he often helps me prepare dinner and then we sit round the table and talk: we do his homewrok together and when it's bedtime I read 2 stories, lie in his bed and cuddle him and sing him a lullaby I have sung since he was a baby. And when I talk to him I always talk to him as an adult, as I do my precocious 4yo dd!

And FWIW, Leo, I start again with a clean sheet every single day, just as I have for the last 4 years. This morning I spoketo him as I always do and made no reference to yesterday, nor will I.

leo talks sense, with a confident relaxed parenting style. wish i could be more like that.

wanted to recommend Steve Biddulphs books.

good luck

Thanks.

I've read Steve Biddulph, Alfie Kohn, Supernanny, How to talk so your kids will listen...

Just had a look and have seen books called 1-2-3- Magic and How to Raise your Spirited Child recommended on another thread - anyone know if these are good?