Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

Barnsleybelle, since you asked co-sleepers about nooky, can I ask about yours? Do you and dh tear each other clothes off every night during the 3 weeks he is back? Have you ever had sex other than in your bedroom at night?

Catz My experience is similar. I always fed DS to sleep. He fed every two hours for the first two months then the periods gradually got longer. At 5 and a half months he slept through the night for 12 hours and we didn't have a single broken night (of his doing) until I gave birth again!

Responding to mrsgboring: I have almost identical memories to you.

Many of my Christmas morning memories begin with having "Get back to bed!" screamed at me.

I am petrified of the dark now, and I think it's largely down to the tension I felt about being awake when I wasn't 'supposed' to be.

Not comparing this to CC, obviously, but those memories are too strong and distressing for me to even countenance not going to my baby if he cries.

Hijack completed. As you were.

Catz - 'martyr' is a good way of putting it - I suppose that is what I was aiming at in a hamfisted way.

Starlight - the thing is that with my now 5yo ds - who we did have to do some sleep training with - once it was done - and it took one night - he hardly ever cried in the night again and so when he did we knew there was something wrong and went in to him immediately - ime once they are sleep trained you dont leave them to cry in the night - who would do that? is that what people do [looks confused]?

I dont think this should become a thread attacking co-sleeping btw, thats not the intention of the OP. Or indeed nooky...

Surely a parents knows the difference between i'm tired and i'm hurt, hungry cry.
My DD just used to do a little grunt which meant "I'm tired put me to bed"

We could never have co slept with her because she would not settle in our bed, she would only sleep in her cot or pushchair.

Both dd and ds slept through from 3 months. DS was breastfed and DD wasn't.
We used to feed ds to sleep and was convinced he wouldn't go down without cuddling and feeding, until my mum babysat one night and she just put him in his cot awake. He didn't cry at all and just settled himself to sleep. After that we did the same and he was fine.

I think this thread is quite hilarious in places.
Comments like
" God doesn't give out good sleepers, it's not about luck"
I have to say that I believe he does and it is about luck in some cases.

"this is a genuine question for co-sleepers... How do you fit the nooky in?"
Surely not a serious question. (assume not as followed by wink)

"who we did have to do some sleep training with - once it was done - and it took one night"
One night? And that is sleep-training.

I think you need to write a book about your method. There must be hundreds of sleep-deprived parents just waiting for it.

Someone seeming to suggest that leaving to cry for 5mins is CC. Or that going back every 5mins for 1 hour is CC.

"If you are prepared to teach them to self settle then that is what they will assume is the way to sleep."
Sooooo easy isn't it?

I think it's become obvious that people don't have the same definition for some things and seem to be talking at cross purposes. Others make presumptions and assumptions.

I probably shouldn't post this but I'm going to anyway.

I had given up reading it all, so I enjoyed your summing up juuule!
I would put what kind of sleeper you get purely to luck!

I completely agree that the kind of sleeper a child is just one of the facets of their personality that can only be put down to the genetic lottery of life.

My two DSSs (11, 13) are completely different sleepers, have completely different digestive patterns etc. There is nothing to be done other than work around what they are naturally inclined to do to their best advantage.

Steven Biddulph's take on the matter is, that you won't necessarily see obvious traumatised child infront of you, but you will certainly not be growing a child into all that he can be. His suggestion to non responsivenes, (i.e crying it out, or placing child too young in a nursery/childcare with 5 babies and one staff member etc) is that the child cannot become all of himeself. Apparently parts of the brain are under-developed in such circumstances and potential is therefore not reached.
Just passing on something I read, that really struck a cord with me and something that comes back to me each day.
His books, not at all preachy, really make sense.

Been away all weekend but thanks for all the messages, not read them all yet, just wanted to post to Pitchenoutte who asked what I would do with a baby who needed touch in the night. I always get up for my twins in the night, if they are crying I get up and feed them. Then they go back to sleep. I have no problem with this (I'd rather they didn't wake me tho!). I only used CC to get them to go to bed at bedtime (7pm).

Not sure why this makes me ignorant flightattendant . It seems sensible to me to want my twins to sleep at night.

Still not read it all but just wanted to make clear that 7pm is my twins' bedtime but that doesn't mean the twins go to bed at 7pm and then I close the door and leave them to it! Since using CC they go to sleep at 7pm 99% of the time so if they cry then I know there is something wrong and can respond to it. I think that makes me a better parent.

I may have been calm in the face of some flaming but that is cos I don't need the MN faithful to reasssure me I am a good parent. But I like to hear where I might be going wrong and then decide whether to change.

lilimama - I am with you all the way on the issue of responsiveness to a child's needs .

lilimama - isnt that male author lucky that he works from home and therefore doesnt need to 'placing child too young in a nursery/childcare with 5 babies and one staff member etc'

Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt (female author) says similar.

Still not read it all! Crush the thing is we used to wait later to put them to bed but they just used to cry and cry (prob cos they wanted to be with us not asleep). So we would be there for an hour settling them at 10pm, it was like they were never ready for bed! If they had stayed up all everning and then gone happily to bed at 10pm then I would probably have carried on with that. But they didn't and they were getting overtired, so 7pm is bedtime now, they get lots of sleep, they are muich happier and so are we.

Only on page 6 and have to go now to get the twins up from their nap! Will come back soon. Loving this thread - thanks everyone.

Steve Biddulph isn't criticising you - rather a society that is organised in such a way that it normalises 5:1 baby:adult ratios etc.

psst, it is 3-1 for below 2s ...

Booboobedoo hello fellow sleepless person I haven't met many people like me before.

giantkatestacks you are incredibly lucky. I don't know anyone who has done CC and not had to do some form of it again a little while down the line (it was learning this that finally put me off the idea. That and the fact that their DCs would then only sleep in their own cot in a darkened room and they were chained to the house at naptimes)

Neenz sorry you have had some flaming on this. You ask a valid question (all the child psychs I've read on this seem to chime in with the few genuine professionals on this thread - it may cause harm but we don't know and some parents are desperate) We are co-sleeping BF on demand types and DS is 3 years old! But he has still had a bedtime since about 4 months, and roughly regular naps until he grew out of them. He also starts the night in his own bed and migrates when he wakes - it has gradually got better over time and I can probably wait for him to grow out of it.

Juule LOL.

Lilimama I happen to agree with Steve Biddulph on nearly everything I've read, but to say his books aren't preachy (or sensationalist) is a bit silly. Many of his claims are backed up, but the wilder ones are unsubstantiated or go further than research has reasonably established.

ofsted baby room minimum is 3:1.biddulph is another highly emotive rabble rouser.dont forget he profits from writing this high octane tosh.perpetrating the nursery baaad myth

and i have no guoilt about beinga "slammer" his emotive and judgey description

hell needs must

• mortgagte
• finances
• my preference to work

no tub thumping sandal wearing academic will change that

he has previously written books espousing benenfits of nursery and day care.maybe figured more dosh in doing a u-turn and getting the ole stereotypes going

blueshoes - in the UK. But Steve Biddulph isn't writing about the UK - he is writing about a general problem in the Western world.

neenz, I don't feel your CC for setting bedtimes is an issue at all. Your twins may have cried at the outset but then their entire bodyclock will just revolve round to adjust to a 7pm bedtime start. As you go to your twins when they wake at night, that is lovely and IMO more important.

I would agree with MrsBoring that the thing which puts me off CC the most (apart from my dcs' take-no-prisoners personality) is the fact that I would probably have to re-do it.

If a child is not yet ready to self-settle, then it would make sense that there will be relapses. My friends have said they have had to re-do CC. I also have the experience of friends and relatives who CC being chained to routine. For example, the CC mother would be nervous about bedtime on holiday whereas I was extremely relaxed about bedtimes because all my dcs need to settle is me and this they did in whichever bed at whatever time.

So long as you need to re-do CC for illness, breaks in routine etc, it is possible that a parent will miss a cry due to tiredness, pain, discomfort, need for a quick cuddle and instead goes straight to CC.

Agree with blueshoes about being chained to routine. Fine if your life is the same day in day out, month in, month out, I suppose. But crap if your life is fairly irregular.

I acknowledge that I have been lucky that I have never had to redo the sleep training with my ds - especially as I have no doubt it would have been much worse when he was older and therefore am not sure I could have carried it through.

on holiday dont people just do the same routine - ie bath, sleeping bag, down in travel cot or whatever just at a time more suitable for where they are? and dont babies have naps in buggies or cars just at around the right times - they dont have to go down in the cot do they?

I must admit though I do like to keep to the same routine - if not the same schedule because I see my dcs as being more important than my need to be out and about on holiday - its funny that we can switch anything round to what we see as being childcentred isnt it - it makes the whole debate a bit daft...

giantkatestacks, on the issue of childcentredness, you are making an assumption that children need and/or are happier with a clock-based schedule (I hesitate to use the word 'routine'). Not all children are like that. Others, like mine, prefer to have a loose assembly of waking, eating, playing, nap, eating, playing, bedtime etc without unduly rigid fixed times or places. That is a routine as well, in terms of a reassuring order to the day, rather than plain clock-watching.

Therefore, it is possible to take a childcentred approach, whether or not you follow a schedule, so long as the parent follows the child's needs, rather than their own, in imposing the schedule or not.

blueshoes - I used the word routine in purpose instead of schedule so that it didnt imply clockwatching...although on the issue of mealtimes I do think that they can benefit from having fixed mealtimes once they are a certain age with the rest of the family. After all they are going to have to go to school like it or not [sad}