Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

Hello Neenz.
Glad to see your twins are doing so well.

As a mother of three, eldest is 9, 4 and 8 weeks. I have to have them in bed by 7pm or I being to lose my sanity.
Also there are alot more scientific studies out there which show that children need at least 11-12 hours sleep a night or they get over tired. In a normal house hold with adults who work then they are up and about by 7/8am. If you dont teach a child to go to sleep at a certain time then how do they get enough sleep?
We taech them to eat, drink, walk, crawl etc but we are not allowed to teach them to sleep???
Keep it up Neez. I am full of admiration that you are doing so well with the twins.

not a child psychologist, but an adult mental health professional with special interest in perinatal mental health.

FWIW, the studies that refer to damage caused by mothers not responding to their children or children being left crying for "prolonged periods" refer to children who have been neglected by their parents over weeks and months, not minutes at bedtime.

That is not to say that we can say conclusively that CC is not harmful, but I just wanted to clarify what these studies refer to.

I do also know that studies have shown that if parents become chronically exhausted/depressed, which can be caused by cumulative sleep deprivation, then their ability to parent well can suffer, to the detriment of the parent-child relationship.

NB: I know that loads of people can be sleep deprived and parent fantastically. but if exhaustion/depression is compromising your ability to respond to your children, then in these circumstances CC is the lesser of 2 evils.

It is so difficult isn't it.

I did it with DS1 - this was pre-MN and I honestly didn't know that anyone had any problem with it - I didn't even do it to get him to sleep through the night, just to go more than about 2 hours. It took 3 nights and I never had any sense from his behaviour during the days etc that he was at all upset or bothered by it - in fact he seemed much happier.

I never needed to do it with DS2 - he was just naturally a good sleeper. His sleep was disturbed a bit later when he was aged around 8 months and started having treatment for club feet and I just used to bring him into bed with me because I thought he was in pain and I couldn't rock him back to sleep - he was in plaster and was too heavy to rock in my arms.

With DS3, I had read all the stuff on here anti-CC plus had read "Why Love Matters" and was determined not to do it with him. He was a dreadful sleeper and going back to work with him hardly sleeping nearly killed me. I "co=slept" with him - what this meant was that we would both be awake for most of the night, eventually he might nod off about 6 a.m., I would sleep for maybe half an hour and then get up for work. It was a living nightmare. I tried the No Cry Sleep Solution but it did no good whatsoever.

Eventually I did pat and shush with him and finally by the time he was about 18 months he was sleeping 5-6 hours a night.

Then of course it turns out he has autism whcih probably explains a lot of his awful sleeping.

Sorry, that was a long unhelpful ramble wasn't it!

Starlight... er, yeah if you ask my friends and family they would say I am definitely a control freak. I know what I like and I want to make it happen. And yes I do think my kids should fit into a schedule as defined by me (or Gina Ford ). It might not come to them naturally but it does come to them after three days. I really don't think they are going to be bullied cos of CC.

I knew I would get flamed for the 'having me on' comment. I didn't mean I thought they were manipulating me, what I meant was there was nothing wrong with them, they just wanted to be up playing and having cuddles when it was bedtime not time for playing and cuddles. If they are crying because they are in pain or hungry then I respond, but if there is nothing wrong with them (ie they are 'having me on'), I prefer to not encourage that.

Ronshar my old friend, how are you? An 8-week-old, congratulations!!!! That is such great news. Yeah, I know what you mean about keeping your sanity. The DTs are now nearly seven months old and since starting weaning they are sleeping pretty much 7-7 (and two hours at lunch) . Everything has become so much easier and they are so much fun now. You are right about them needing their sleep. My two really are contented little babies (to coin a phrase) because they never get overtired. Their grandparents are always amazed at how happy they always are (whereas my SIL's baby - the one who refuses to use CC - is always overtired and whingy cos he is always rocked/cuddled to sleep and never naps for more than 30mins. Not saying the two are necessarily related of course, because he has never been a good sleeper whereas my two slept all the time in the first few months - except at night, the buggers )

My eighteen month old co sleeps with me and she does still wake a lot but I couldn't do cc,i have never tried it,I couldn't ignore her if she cried,I would feel wretched.Yes I do think modern western life is terrible in many ways for parents of small children,and I understand what tiredness can do to one,but I think we have evolved over millennia to wake during the night and check for our own safety,babies have a need to know that they are safe and in their helpless state it must be a horrible feeling to cry and not have that cry answered.

I am totally against CC for many different reasons. There are other humane ways out there to help your baby/toddler go to sleep. As parents we attend to the physical needs of our children why is it that the emotional needs dont seem to be as important? Yes we need to sleep but leaving a child to cry ( for prolonged periods) in the dark on its own is rather cruel.Most people I know who have done this havent really looked at the emotional impact of this and when they see results that suit them they think it has worked. But how do we really know that the child has gone to sleep happily or it has just given up? Like most difficulties in early childhood development things usually manifest and its usually in adolescence or adulthood that the impact of difficulties appear in whatever shape or form.
I always go to my children when they cry, in my opinion you can never have enough cuddles and love.

I am most definitly not a psychologist, have trouble spelling it, but everyone I konw who doesnt have a fixed bedtime for their little ones suffers with bad sleeping, bad behaviour during the day etc. I feel deep in my bones the two are connected.
I have to teach it the same as any other skill.
Both my DDs are well rounded girls, apart from when they dont get enough sleep then we all suffer. But that is the same for me. So I had better go to bed now.
Good to see you Neenz. Kisses to your babies.

I just don't understand how people completely know whether their child is teething, or coming down with something. A few times DD has played up at bedtime and has become ill the next day. I don't agree with cc at all. I also don't agree with putting babies to bed when you say so then being surprised when they're not tired. What happened to responding to their needs? DD is a happy contented toddler AND a terrible sleeper. I will not be doing cc as the whole point of me is to meet her needs. And she knows what they are better than me. She has never 'played me up' by not sleeping. If she's not asleep it's because she can't get to sleep and needs my help.

FWIW I do have a set bedtime for DD although it is always flexible. She goes down 4-5 hours after her nap as that is when she gets tired. So it depends on when she sleeps in the day. I don't believe sleeping well is a skill to be taught. It is a developmental milestone which they need to reach, some earlier than others.

It's interesting cos the reason me and SIL were talking about CC was because I was telling her about a TV show about tigers I was watching on Discovery the night before. It was about a tigress and her two cubs. Me and DH were watching it and it was all about how she cares for them and protects them and it just struck me how naturally it all seems to come to animals and I said to DH 'You don't see her having to use CC with her cubs'. But then they co-sleep and she doesn't worry about rolling on them.

I co-slept with my DTs when they were very young just so I could get some sleep when they were up all night feeding (I exclusively Bfed them) but I couldn;t do it now cos I know I don;t sleep well when they are in with me.

This is a slight tangent but I'd be interested in people's thoughts. My question is about crying when they are in the pushchair.
DS is 8mo and for the last 2 months or so, often cries A LOT when we are using the pushchair. He can get so miserable/hysterical that a fair few times I've had to take him out of it and carry him round the supermarket. But if we are in a rush to get from A to B, or coming back with loads of shopping hanging off the back of the pushchair - it's not possible.
I'll talk to him or sing (like a madwoman!) so he knows I'm still there - but when we arrive I notice that he is almost always glum and withdrawn and will often turn his head away from me.

I don't believe in CC at all, I'm afraid, but wonder if what I've described above actually produces the same effect ie: a breakdown of trust. He is communicating: 'I am miserable in this thing, please get me out of it.' No response from me.

Pardon the ramble - as you were.

sixspot that is a great example of how to be child-led. i had a non sleeper (constant feeder) to start with, but now at 3.5 he does stay alseep so perhaps it does even out.

neenz, twins must mean special measures. they aren't being left alone with the crying either.

Er, yeah they are alone cos they are in separate rooms so they don't disturb each other with all their crying

No, really they don't cry much at all - honest! They sometimes wake in the evenings/night and have a whinge then go back to sleep so they are in separate rooms so they don't wake each other.

I think I would treat a singleton exactly the same but yes from the very start I new I had to be 'strict' (for want of a better word) with my twins if I wanted to retain any sense of sanity.

Someone said 'we teach our babies to eat, crawl and walk' - what?
I remember encouraging them to do those things when they seemed ready, but if they're not ready forcing developmental milestones must be damaging in some way.

I am nog a child psychologist, can I still reply? feel free to ignore, but I think it depends on the child and parents. I know families where CC has worked a treat, but I know that in my family we co-sleep, noone is ever left to cry and we are all sleep-deprived.

I agree with CharChar - we're here to meet their needs, that's what being a parent is about. We shouldn't expect them to fit in with all our whims. My DD has always been a night owl, so am I, so it's not a big surprise. So, after 2 years of trying to get to work on time but failing every day because I can't wake her up I've managed to find a way to adapt my working hours around her needs rather than put her through the painful process of trying to change her natural sleep rhythms. She's also never been a great sleeper - because she needs a cuddle to get back to sleep. yes, it's inconvenient but not unmanageable - I preserve my sleep and sanity by sleeping in her double bed (yeah - you read it right!) on work nights. This won't go on forever - she's told me when she doesn't want me to feed her any more, when she was ready to stop breast-feeding, when she was fed up with the buggy...she'll tell me to piss off into my own bed when she's ready for it.

In the meantime, it's working. Hoping for another dc soon - it'll all change then and we'll just have to find another way to adapt and incorporate another person's needs.

I'm not psychologist either, but I did a biology degree. We're just mammals, we like to cuddle up with our mummies, sleep in a nest and we sort ourselves out as we grow up. We have the advantage over other mammals of our huge brains and ability to work out and communicate things like CC - but it should be seen as a last resort for those who need it, not a standard procedure like some HV's make it seem.(Of course there's always a downside - shame about having to pop our babies out when they're still pretty under-developed and wait months before they can do anything useful. check out baby wildebeest - up and on the go in hours! Those big brains can't squeeze through tiny pelvises!)

I agree my Dds are great sleepers now 12-13hrs...!!! My Dd1 still gets cuddled over to sleep. Its a lovely relaxing time, I dont mind, she needs it and I know that maybe in a short while she wont.

Jams, that sounds lovely. It's not for me, but it is working for you and your DD so that is great. But where does your DH sleep? I couldn't sleep with my children at the expense of my DH (not saying you are wrong, it is all a personal choice ).

My parents always made sure we knew that they loved us but that they loved each other in a different way and that they always put each other before us. We always knew they were there for us and we often got in their bed in the middle of the night tho. I suppose with unconditional love, which you have for your kids, you don't need to work on it like you need to work on your love for your spouse.

So I would never sleep with my kids over my spouse (unless they were ill etc, then that is different).

I cosleep with DD which is lovely, especially in this cold weather! The way I see it is, if I'm exhausted after getting up all night (which I would have been after 3 months solid of teething and illness ) then my relationship with DP would have suffered as I would have been snappy and had no energy. Cosleeping is our way of maximising sleep for the whole family. It's not for everyone though

I wouldn't do it with babies. I think they give up because they don't expect anyone to come, I preferred mine to know that if they were in distress I would be there. I managed it without co sleeping which I couldn't have coped with.

I'm so glad that I didn't have the internet when mine were little. I would have worried myself sick thinking I was emotionally damaging them.

My dh sorted the children's sleeping in two evenings by going in and stroking their backs and leaving them for a few minutes at a time. Two evenings only after months of unsettled crankyness that lasted all day.

Flipping brilliant.

See [http://www.earlychildhoodaustralia.org.au/Controled%20Crying.pdf here for research]

I work in mental health but adult so not quite the same.
All the people I see with damaged personalities have been abused/ neglected by their parents to a horrible degree: sexually or physically abused or severely neglected. With my professional hat on I therefore don't really think you can say that CC is likely to do long term damage as long as the overall relationship is loving and nuturing.
As a mother I chose to always go to my baby when she was crying. We co-slept as and when it was needed and breastfed or rocked to sleep. She now sleeps 11hr in her own cot and I just sit with my hand on her back for 5 mins whilst she drops off. I feel sure sleep is a developmental thing. It just clicked for DD at 16months. Totally disagree with ronshar you can't teach them to eat, crawl, walk or sleep only give them opportunities to learn for themselves when ready and as with all the above there's a wide range of normal. There are lots of things in parenting where there is not going to be scientific evidence as such so we all just have to make our choices and be secure in them.

Message withdrawn

Not a psych, but got a PhD in related area and have lectured in Child Dev.

I think there's probably a happy medium whereby you can lengthen the periods of time a child is encouraged to settle themselves, until they get more used to doing this. Children are ready for this at different stages. Surprisingly, bedtimes for very young children can be later than you would think, to encourage them to sleep through once they are in bed. A friendly face around the door when there is distress reminds the child they have not been abandoned, as does people pottering about in the vicinity of the bedroom putting washing away or whatever while they are dropping off to sleep. We are essentially social beings, us humans.

So it's probably all about getting a balance between group membership and a degree of self-reliance, psychologically speaking, and different cultures come to this at different times. In the west we see our role as pushing our children away a bit from us and encouraging independence, in the east often parents perceive it as drawing children towards the extended group and improving their collective behaviour skills.

Hence there's no right or wrong answer to how to bring your child up, but the measure of success is probably the happiness, health and energy level evident within your own family. If any of these seem to be off kilter, then it makes sense to try alternative approaches until the situation is resolved to your satisfaction.

I don't think extreme positions are very helpful, nor do I think there is any virtue to buying opinionated baby books promoting inflexible positions towards child rearing. Parents need to be encouraged to try different things until they find the confidence to do what works for them. We all have the answers within us, but sometimes it just takes a bit of time to find them.