Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

cotedazure, I believe oonagh's initial post was in response to barnsleybelle's description of her SIL's baby: "She still has to help settle her baby to sleep, plus resettle 2-3 times a night. Baby is unable to settle himself back to sleep without the comfort of his mums cuddle, consequently he has to cry to wake her. I actually feel sad for him that he has to cry 2-3 times in the night as he doesn't feel secure enough to resettle."

Oonagh was simply saying that waking in the night could be a sign of a secure rather than insecure baby. In this context, oonagh is not saying that babies that sleep through the night are insecure. Only that those who wake are not necessarily insecure.

Thank you Blueshoes, this is the correct analysis...

littleboyblue...ditto for both my dc's. I find that for mine a routine in the early days made very contented babies.

scifnerd... I think we become defensive because mums who use CC are often deemed as cruel and our babies are accused of "giving up" and "losing trust". I love and adore my children and have honestly never used CC for my own personal convenience, simply because in my experience CC takes only a few days and results in a very happy baby long term.

I would never judge someone as cruel for continually assisting their babies to sleep, so of course i become defensive when someone suggests i am. (not that i'm suggesting you have said this, but many posts on here have)

I am so going to regret weighing in on this thread.

Reason I don't do CC is because I was a horrendous sleeper till age 5 and then naturally woke very early for a further 2-3 years after that. Because it went on so long I have vivid memories of it. I remember lying in bed watching my sister sleep wondering how she did that, feeling desperately lonely and thinking what a bad girl I was for not being able to go to sleep easily. I remember years of going to sleep dreading the fact that I would have a long lonely time in the morning trying to do something without waking anyone else up and getting screamed at. I absolutely couldn't help it and there was nothing anyone could do to make it better - I just snapped out of it one day when I must have been 7 or 8.

Even now if I'm feeling ill or jumpy or in a strange bed I get that same feeling of lonely dread that there is a long period of darkness that everyone else wants to spend lying down doing nothing and I just don't get it. I could never inflict that lonely feeling on DS.

He is a fairly bad sleeper but has gradually improved over his three years. The advantage of having a fairly insomniac personality is I can cope with the lack of sleep (though since puberty I need a normal amount of sleep - I'm just pretty good at functioning without it). The first 15 months were utter hell, up and down the stairs all evening to DS. I have served my time and trodden the path I've chosen to tread.

DS has a routine and he has to go to bed at bedtime and he's not allowed up before 5am (!!) but I tend to keep him on this track through help and guidance rather than CC.

And FWIW I know several people who've done CC and then when their children were older, they've developed sleep problems again. When I ask them why they don't do CC again they say "Oh no I couldn't, it would be cruel. This time she's having bad dreams (or whatever) and she really needs me."

blueshoes... I do honestly believe all babies have the ability to eventually self settle.... of course i also think an element of CC may need to be done to achieve this.

Thats what the thread is about... Do you believe in CC or not...

I am not convinced that CC is harmful in any way, but I know if I did it, feeling the way I do about it, it would be cruel.

barnsleybelle I wasn't actually criticising any of you for becoming so defensive, I feel defensive too when I read threads like this. I just think it is a shame that we all end up feeling so bad about ourselves when we are clearly all trying our best.

But FWIW mums of AP often end up feeling just as lambasted as CC mums for having "whiny, clingy" kids and so on.

scifinerd.... you are right. I always join the CC threads and then regret it later as i get so wound up about the judgy comments.

should read this book called 'the no-cry sleep solution; by elizabeth pantley. she offers lots of ideas of things you can do to encourage good sleeping not a one size fits all approach but lots of good tips, something for everyone. not very judgemental and seems to have been through it all herself but quite attatchment parent biased - which i liked.

"waking in the night could be a sign of a secure rather than insecure baby"

How?

Is there any literature anywhere that supports this theory? Or has it been invented for the purpose of this thread?

All children (and adults) wake multiple times in the night. Most go back to sleep within seconds. The ones who need parental reassurance to resettle eventually grow out of it. So does that mean they are no longer secure? That he no longer trusts his mum? It doesn't make sense.

Cotedazure- you are completely missing the point and taking the quote out of context.Go back to the previous page and you will realize that my post was in conjunction with another persons post.You are taking it out of context.

cotedazure, I only know my own dcs. They both wake many times in the night as babies. We co-slept. If I was not there when they woke, they would go from bleary to screaming in seconds. Even now at 2.2 years' old, the first word my ds says when he wakes is 'mummy'. Both are very attached to me - it is obvious to my dh and aupair.

Now I did not construct a life for myself to be chained to the bed when they were asleep but they seemed to need to know that I was physically next to them to feel secure enough to resettle. Yes, dd did grow out of it. And I am sure ds will to, when he is ready.

I just don't get the co-sleeping thing if i'm honest. Do you sleep with dh and the children too? All in one bed? Do you not think it's a real shame that "if i was not there when they woke, they would go from bleary to screaming in seconds". That really does sound like insecurity to me.

CoteDAzur

'Some parents feel that everything a baby does is sacred, and none of it should be tampered with, lest the said baby be damaged for life (or something).'

Goodness, are there really parents like that? I'm sure I should find them quite odd. Are they the ones doing the lotus births?

'there is nothing wrong with guiding him into a new set of habits that are in better harmony with the rest of the family.'

I quite agree. In fact I would go further than that and suggest that the baby has to be moulded eventually to fit into the society that they are born into and follow its rules at least until he/she becomes strong and independent enough to challenge it. Anything else would be suicide.

However, under the protection of it's parents I believe this can and should be done slowly, gently and with the least amount of distress.

giantkate

'If at a certain point they need to get up at 7 to be out of the house quite early what happens if they have gone to bed later?'

Surely you just transfer the asleep to their mode of transport, or change and feed them and the fall asleep again on the go!

littleboyblue I think my issues with cc are mainly around it sounding to me like a lot of unneccesary hastle and stress and strikes me as a very unimaginative way of creating family harmony. Instead of forcing our children to sleep when we do, why not sleep when they do? Why is the way we do things any BETTER than the way that they do?

Further, we are independent mature adults who have a good level of control over our lives wheras babies are helpless and can't rationalise why they're being made to lie in the dark in silence when they are alert and lonely. It just seems kinder to me to meet them some way in the middle.

Oonagh - Please answer the question.

Is there any literature anywhere that supports your theory that needing mummy to resettle in the night can be a sign of a particularly secure child?

If I misunderstood, explain it. I read your post and the one it responds to, and it still sounds like nonsense.

What barnsleybelle said.

Barneleybelle, my children are what they are. There is no shame or security or insecurity in this. As a parent, you decide how far you are prepared to go to meet your babies' needs. My children just need longer before they feel that they can self-settle. Why do you keep bringing the issue of security into this like self-settling is some kind of goal which little babies must race to meet? I never thought I would co-sleep with my dcs - not for a moment. But god is not even-handed in giving out the good sleepers. Thank your lucky stars.

starlight... "sleep when they do"... That's a nice idea, but totally impractical for many people, me inparticular. The idea of a routine is not that you put them to bed when they "are lonely and alert".. What a silly thing to suggest we do.

cotedazure, I would ask the same question of barnsleybelle;

barnesleyelle, is there any literature anywhere that supports your theory that NOT needing mummy to resettle in the night can be a sign of a particularly secure child?

blueshoes... your not getting it are you? God doesn't give out good sleepers, it's not about luck. It's about when a small baby is tired and doesn't know how to get to sleep, what the parent does to help them. If you decide to take them into your bed then this is what they will assume is the way they are expected to sleep. If you are prepared to teach them to self settle then that is what they will assume is the way to sleep. No right or wrong, just different parenting styles. Just don't assume that those of us with good sleepers are lucky or blessed. Most of us have worked hard to get there.

I wonder why it is impractical barnsley. Is it because you have set youself up in this way?

I have come across many people who say it is impracticle but what they really mean is it would be too inconvenient or interfere with how they would like to live their own lives for this short period in their baby's life.

I usually IS possible with a little imagination. You need to get 8 hours somewhere in 24. They don't have to be consecutive although I think you're supposed to aim for one 3 hour stretch.

Forgot to say, - you can sleep when they are awake too, if there are two adults in your family!

You're all going round in circles and no one seems prepared to concede any point of view.

So I am going to bed where I shall probably dream of crying MNetters all co-sleeping and crying together .

Will we all be on another thread in 15 years entitled "Should we kick or gently rouse them out of bed" when the little darlings go from not sleeping to never getting out of their bloody beds.

As my annoying father says "children grow up despite their parents not because of them".

Ahh, barnsleybelle, of course, users of CC have worked really hard to get there. That is what I am missing. 3 nights (if that) of really hard work. If only parenting wasn't so hard

I never said there was literature, just that a baby "screaming" in the night because mummy isn't there makes me form the opinion that the baby feels insecure when mummy is not there. Am i off base? What would you describe that as, it was you who described this i believe?