Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

I think DaddyJ's comment "Do you believe the mother's suffering reflects the quality of her parenting?" was interesting.

We used to always take our baby out in his pram and push him around the streets to get him to sleep - he hated sleeping in his bed in the daytime (although has always been quite good at night). As he got older, though, the pram thing didn't always work and sometimes he would cry and cry and cry in his pram. It was about then (6.5 mths) that we decided to do some sleep training with him partly so that we could put him in his cot in the daytime for a proper nap (and also because he had started to wake up a lot more at night, from the age of c. 4 mths).

Anyway, the interesting (ridiculous?) thing is that I felt much less guilty when pushing him in his pram with him screaming and crying for up to 45 minutes than I did when putting him in his bed, where he would cry for maximum 15 minutes before going to sleep. When he was in the pram I was wearing myself out physically by pushing him around and emotionally by listening to the crying and so I felt that I was "doing" something. When he was in his cot at home, I ran away as to the far end of the flat and tried not to listen - by putting headphones on and listening to music for 5 mins at a time.

I felt MUCH more guilty and terrible at home although he actually cried LESS at home. So, I was definitely martyring myself for no good reason.

Starlight, I actually came onto the thread to excuse myself
as I am completely swamped with work and will be for the next 7 days..
but I would like to finish our conversation one day.

Have a good break. Probably need it after this thread!

swanriver, I take your story on board,
it might be anecdotal only but still.

Similar anecdotes exist on the dangers of co-sleeping
which, unlike sleep training, can apparently be fatal.

We also took those on board - and still co-slept.

This parenting business requires real cojones. don't it?!

This thread won't take many more posts so just wanted to say how interesting the whole debate has been and thank you to everyone who contributed. I have learned a lot and am very glad of it. I think in future I will try more gentle CC methods such as sitting by the cot while the baby cries rather than just abandonment!

But I still believe that short periods of crying or even a few long periods (if necessary) is not damaging in the long term and can even be good for the baby and mum.

Maria - thinking of you... Are you and DS (and DP of course) ok?

Hi again everyone

This thread is so interesting... and it's a pity if it's true what Neenz says, that it won't take many more posts. But I've learnt really a whole load by reading all this, & I want to thank you all!!

Thanks also for thinking of me, & for all the suggestions. I will look into osteopathy, certainly, when we return from our holidays at the beginning of January. I don't know much about osteopathy at all, but several people have suggested it, because our boy had a forceps delivery. So who knows, that may play a role. Personally I'm skeptical with alternative medicine (although surprisingly I've found acupuncture a lifesaver for my migraines) which is why I know nothing about osteopathy. But will give it a go if things continue as they are.

Here are some final ideas (because I too will leave for 3 weeks). I still believe that CC and other sleep training involving potentially lots of crying should be a last resort. As a last resort, and particularly for sleep association issues, I don't reject it. And those who do have not really shown me, through all they've written on this thread, how else persistent sleep association problems (e.g. dummy, rocking to sleep etc) can be resolved. I'm talking about small problems, but PERSISTENT ones, that go on for months & deprive babies of much needed sleep. And also, importantly, deprive parents of much needed sleep. I disagree completely that parenthood in the first year has to be THAT hard for anyone, babies or children. In any case, before reaching sleep training, there's a lot to try in order to help things along, and this thread has shown me how important feeding & sleeping routines can be (especially, in my opinion, after 3 months) in order to AVOID sleep training further down the line.

In the days since I've last written, you'll be happy to know, I got some help/advice (thankfully unpaid) from someone who knows much about sleeping / feeding. I have found out that my main problem is DS eats very little & often- especially at night-, meaning that my milk supply during the day is way down. This has led to him getting just enough milk each time to lst him 1-2 hours, and not more. Since I understood this, a few days ago, I've managed to increase my milk supply during the day with a lot of rest & expressing, & already my boy is on the breast much much more often in the day, & eats more happily. At night my DP took up the feedings so that I could rest & express/feed a lot in the morning (he used EBM or formula) for 2 days, & ALREADY our boy is having a feed around 11 at night, and then sleeping until 4 am, having another feed, & then sleeping until 7. This has already made a massive, massive difference to my mood & my tiredness... and I really really want to thank everyone, because I think this thread pushed me to act rather than wait. I know we also have a dummy issue, but already DS is waking much less for his dummy, so we'll deal with that further down the line. There's still a lot to do, but I thought I'd write down how things are going with us, first because my case may show (if it continues to go well, fingers crossed!) how structuring sleeping & feeding may actually PREVENT sleep training, & how sometimes the problem is very simple & under your nose for you to see, but you're just not seeing it because of this insane idea of completely demand feeding with an end point. I am very upset that my health visitor could not give me these options. I haven't had to pay for this information & the plan I'm following, but I suspect others who don't take similar steps go for months feeling exhausted, without really getting good advice from health visitors / GPs. Why is that do you think? What I've understood in these last few days is that that level of exhaustion & demand feeding through the night can only lead, logically, to either one of 3 things:

1. a difficult sleep training when all else has failed. And it'll be difficult because a demand fed, attachment-parented baby (what a word!!) will be completely unused to what sleep training involves. Also, it'll be very hard for the parents, because it'll be done as a last resort & often out of desperation, & will probably go against their beliefs / instincts, which led them to AP in the first place.

2. a natural resolution of sleep problems. I agree with those who wrote that it DOES happen in time, often relatively early, with some babies. BUT NOT WITH ALL. I certainly don't think all babies resolve their sleep issues on their own.

3. continuation of tiredness & lack of sleep for the whole family into the toddler years, & acceptance of this as normal. In my family, we have decided we don't want to risk going down that route. I accept some find it ok. Not us.

Anyway. Those are my thoughts so far. Will be glad to discuss more with anyone who's interested in what we're doing to resolve our baby's sleep problems, perhaps you can email me if you want further info.

Oh I meant completely demand feeding WITHOUT an end point. It's that that I'm now against... not at the beginning of BF, but after a point I think demand feeding does not work.

So in fact your DS was hungry?

Hi Maria! Good to hear from you. Glad to hear that something so relatively 'straightforward' as sorting out your bf-ing should have such a positive impact on your DS's sleep (and yours!).

Agree - frustrating about HV.

But, to 'disagree' slightly (or at least to offer own experience) - I'm still demand feeding DD, and we're muddling along ok. But - this only goes to show what we've learnt on this thread, which is thar all mums and babies are different!

Have a great holiday!!!

that... not thar. Am not pirate. [yo ho ho emoticon]

Maria - thats great news, so pleased that its improved for you.

I agree about the structure, some things that work for newborns may not work for older babies - we all just have to be flexible and constantly reappraise.

I think its much easier to wean a baby (whether blw or traditional) if you have more 'fixed' meal times as well and that will be happening soon wont it?

Have a great holiday - I posted something about flights for you on one of your travel threads...

Anna, yes!! it seems he was hungry, and at least PART of his waking up had to do with that I kept giving him the breast on demand, but it now seems that he was getting very little each time, & I haven't managed to keep up with all the growth spurts, perhaps because of tiredness. It helps a lot now that I'm trying to structure his sleeping & feeding times & reverse the cycle we were in (not eating at day, & eating on & off all night, often finishing still dissatisfied). Lets see how it goes. I've concluded- as giants & penthesileia said- that some things that work beautifully for some people don't work for others, & I think health visitors in the UK don't acknowledge this. Also, some things that work for newborns (e.g. demand feeding for us was great at first) don't necessarily continue working for older babies, especially when exhaustion is added to the mix. Anyway, that's my experience, of course all babies are completely different, & all mothers too! And yes giants, because we'll be weaning at 26 weeks or so (he's now almost 20 weeks), set meal times (more or less, not obsessively 'set') will be massively useful.

Glad to hear that Maria.

I always tried to space out the feeds for my two, after the first couple of weeks. I believed and still believe that, that way, they took a proper feed and my body got time to make milk. They both reliably slept 11 or 12 hours straight by 12 weeks old, 7pm ish to 7am ish.

Not a popular view on here though.

well, i am v. pleased that you are on the right track, Maria, what a relief.

i think its very easy with demand feeding to get into that kind of snacky mode. my dd didn't really "demand" at the beginning and lost too much weight so i started off on regular feedtimes back then. but i have got into those 'little frequent' meal situations before and i think its better for everyone if your lo can have a really good "meal", then a good sleep, wake up refreshed and have another good "meal" and so on.

i think your "case" shows that genuine hunger has to be eliminated first . . .

Glad to hear you resolved your ds' sleep issues and things are calmer in your household.

All I can think about is that if you had tried to sleep train your ds as you were close to doing, 1,2,3 days or however long it would take to 'cure' him, he would in fact have inadvertently been deprived of milk when he was hungry. At his age the only way he could protest was by crying. Hunger is a very real medical reason.

My dcs are little and often feeders as well and thinking about it, I have always reverse cycled, even after I went back to work after a year's maternity.

Funnily enough I was researching lack of self esteem for my 8yr old DD last night and came up with the CC method contributing to the problem.

I realised I did CC with her as a baby religiously.

DD2 - I didnt do it and she is more well balanced.

The MIND website said that children that had massages as babies and felt close to mum were more likely to be happier children.

Agan this is true! I didn;t massage DD1 but did DD2 every day.

There is now clinical research to support the dangers of CC. I manage a sleep clinic for NHS and also privately in Leeds and York. I have never supported the dangerous use of controlled crying. Current research demonstrates that babies allowed to cry themselves to sleep may self soothe as adults. They may use drugs cigarettes and alcohol to self soothe. It is also known now that leaving a child to cry himself to sleep is putting him at risk of adverse changes to immature brain systems. Sleep training does not have to involve tears.

Which research???

With all due respect, that is the single most ridiculous theory I have seen on MN, and that is against some serious competition.

Everybody drinks, takes drugs, or smokes at one point of his/her life of another. It doesn't mean the whole human race is "self-soothing" because we have been left to cry as babies

It might just mean that we partied in our youth, or mixed with a particularly naughty crowd. Then grew up and moved on.

It is good to have a voice of common sense CoteDAzur!

naturallaw - you've obviously read all of this thread then... are you referring to the (largely discredited)research that daddyj mentioned earlier?

Can you back your statement up please?No? What a surprise...

Well honestly, it really is no wonder that threads get inflamed when folks like naturallaw get involved!

MMM let's see now - you might put forward an opinion that allowing children to co-sleep reinforces a fear of the dark and sleeping alone- could this lead to a life of promiscuity because a child who co-slept will always need a bed partner?????? This theory is hard to prove or disprove but it is certainly BULLSHIT!!!

.....as, I might add, is Naturallaws theory.

I am surprised that anyone has DCs if you are going to be held responsible for everything they do as adults. Personality plays a big part-some people are natural risk takers, some people fight authority etc.
A lot of people experiment in their youth-it is a good idea to learn by your mistakes. People need to take responsibility for their own actions-they shouldn't be saying that they drink too much because their mother did CC! (I am not a fan of CC by the way)

Chatting with a friend today who co-sleeps with her 4 year old and is fed up of it. She will need to introduce a form of cc now because all other forms of encouragement have not worked (sticker charts, bribery etc.) Sometimes it is the only option left.