Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

anna and devout I think you have hit the nail on the head there - all babies are different and need/drive their parents to different things - in fact my dd is very different to my ds (who resembled cotes - your post brought it all back actually).

Yet a different parenting approach for my dd would have meant having two things going on in the same house - obviously not an option really and it was all academic for medical reasons anyway...

am not sure whether to be thankful or not for those links daddyj they have wound me right up - I cant stand fundamentalism in any form - I used to be up my own ass about dummy use with ds until I met a really sucky baby - dd. Parenting can make us all hypocrites sometimes but its easier to do what feels right if we dont pigeonhole ourselves in the first place.

Maria - I respect your choice to wait until your son is older and hope that things maybe work out between now and then.
I did do it at 4 months and it was very quick, less dramatic then i thought and never in the middle of the night - a) because she started sleeping through immediately and b)i then assumed if she woke up at night that she was hungry and fed her. That's my principle now too - if she wakes properly and cries in the night, something is up.

In the meantime, could you not take turns with your DH to be in with him while the other gets a nice stretch of sleep somewhere else? If your LO will take a bottle of EBM, then you could occasionally get a stretch of uninterrupted sleep on the sofa or spare room. We did this for the first few months and it kept us totally sane. Initially I was worried that it would affect my supply but I didn't do it every night and I was pumping enough to have oversupply through growth spurts etc.

I had nearly a four year gap between ds and dd as his sleeplessness was so traumatic for us. With dd I felt ready to go again after a year. I think that says it all really.

Have to say, my next child didn't sleep through for even longer than ds, over a year, but her sleep patterns were much more manageable. She would go back to sleep after waking and she wasn't distressed and made miserable by her lack of sleep, so it was very different.

Hi again everyone! My boy is (at last) sleeping, but is waking about every 10-20 minutes (I repeat EVERY 10-20 MINUTES) for his dummy. DP is in charge of replugging the dummy, so here I am. It's been a horrible day: DS cranky all day, rubbing his eyes, going for naps easily but waking with a jolt, crying immediately after naps... As for co-sleeping as the solution to everything, I'm sorry but for us co-sleeping solves nothing at all. Last night was awful. He slept with us in our bed from 11 onwards (because we were just too exhausted to keep taking him back to his room) & he was awake at least every hour, was breastfeeding on & off (and NO I don't slip back to sleep easily after each BF session)... and from 5 am onwards was basically awake, cranky & crying from tiredness, but too wired up to sleep again. As for us... at some point, after a huge amounts of cuddles, sh-sh-sh-ing, breastfeeding countless times etc (and of course constant dummy-replugging) we ended up feeling tired as hell and irritated...

Just thought I'd write this for Starlight's benefit (sorry Starlight but you were being completely rude & irritating to devout, who was making complete sense & was explaining her stance very logically. For an attachment parent, you sound pretty ungenerous & show a profound lack of imagination. How about addressing the possibility that not all babies are the same, like Anna says? Thank you )

And before anyone jumps in to tell me my son is having a growth spurt, thanks, I know he is- but how about a 4 month growth spurt? Plus extremely light sleep. Plus a dummy addiction. Equals an exhausted child, who was unable to play happily today (and many days) & made some sad little efforts to babble & communicate today (which is usually his favourite activity) but would very quickly become overtired & weepy again.

So what do those who are attachment parents propose I do? Really, I would love to hear their opinions.

Having followed this thread from the beginning, I'm more & more seeing the sense in doing some kind of sleep training (be it CC or PU/PD) in situations where babies are overtired, like mine clearly is. I know I've made the point again & again that I wouldn't do it- and I'm definitely not ready or willing at all- but in your opinion, what should I do?

Tinsel- yes, we do take turns to sleep a bit, & EBM works well (or formula once in a blue moon) but unfortunately the most recent growth spurt has meant that our boy is again not wanting the bottle (which at other times he takes happily). We tried last night, he simply refused to drink from a bottle, & I had to feed him. As for doing the sleeping training earlier rather than later, I take your point. This thread has really made me think a lot, so thank you everyone for all your wonderful advice.

I still though am completely unable to listen to my baby boy cry... Plus, he's an insistent little fellow, I don't think he'd give up his dummy that easily...

Maria - We went through that with DD and finally took away the dummy. As with sleep training, it took 2 tough days and she forgot about the dummy after that. We gave it back when she started teething at 9 months because she was chewing and sucking on anything and everything, but that is another story.

by the way, Neenz, thanks for your advice about how to remove the dummy (if/when we decide to do this... hopefully it won't be needed...) I think it really makes sense what you say, and after Xmas we probably will do something like that if this sleepless state continues.

Thanks Cote D'azur. As I said, the more I read the more I can't see any other way apart from sleep training.
As I said before, what other option is there? I'm addressing this to APers.

I do empathise Maria we had a 'bunk' night's sleep last night - nowhere near as bad as yours tho' by the sound of it.

I was pretty strict with DS (4) re sleep times and doing bits of CC where necessary and making sure he didn't get too many bad sleep association habits. As a result he is a SOUND sleeper 7pm-8am even when not well. Never has a fear of the dark and in fact sees bed as a safe haven (e.g previous Halloween / bonfire night concerns have seen him insistant on going to bed early).

With DD(13mnths) we seem to have acquired a dummy habit and 11:00pm night feed habit. Every night she is awake once or twice to be replugged. Last night she was awake for an extended period due to an undetected slightly leaky nappy (oops). One thing I refused to do with both is take either into our bed (very early months apart) I comfort them in their bedrooms. I think with DD she just had to get by alot without structure because of her brother's needs.
This has not made her any more flexible just more dependant on 'props'.

My hunch is I will probably need to go 'cold turkey' pretty soon and take the 'props' away + do some gentle cc (popping in every 10 mins or so to reassure). I hope the process will be quick, but it is not something I have any concerns about. I see how much DS has benefitted from routine.

I co-slept on and off with my mother until I was 10 years old - something I feel that was really not healthy for me or my parents.

Oh and I am an insomniac to boot! Someone should cc me!

Hi izyboy, me and DH were talking last night about how we'll treat our next child. I was so 'GF' with the twins that I did some things that I now think I probably wouldn't do again cos I have learned so much from my seven months of parenting and from reading MN (had never heard of AP till about three weeks ago, tho had heard of continuum concept). So I think my next baby will probably not be as 'well trained' as the twins from such an early age, and also I will have much more time to indulge a singleton, so it will be interesting to see how s/he turns out sleep-wise. I hope I'll be able to do the same things but even just reading this thread has made me think twice about how I feel about leaving a baby to cry.

Maria, it will be interesting to hear what the AP solution to the dummy problem is. You asked what we thought you should do. I think you should take the dummy for his sake and yours. Your days and nights sound very traumatic and your baby should be much more fun than this. You should be enjoying him! Just think, this time next week... you could be having a good night's sleep and happy and peaceful days. I feel like a dealer trying to entice a child to take drugs or something!

I have never understood the argument that a baby needs to go down to bed at a particular time (hence the need for sleep training) because otherwise he will be cranky the next day
SO what if he's cranky?
He can have a morning nap, an afternoon nap can he not? Babies and kids can nap anytime of day. It just means he'll drop off sooner or sleep a little longer when he does drop off, won't he? Theres no way a child's development is going to be hampered by not going to bed at a particular time. I'm sure our baby'S bodies are cleverer than that. They can catch up on their sleep, or sleep earlier the next night.
WHat I mean is, the possibility (or reality) of a kid or baby being cranky is not enough to justify leaving a baby to cry for any length of time.
Before I'm misquoted, as I said before, a mother who is trying to stop herself from reaching the end of her tether may have a good reason to let the baby cry, but lets all stop pretending it is in any way for the sake of the baby!!

Sakura, being cranky can be a clear sign that something's not right and the child isn't feeling good. If being cranky regularly follows a disturbed or late evening, then it's not much of a leap to link the two and try out a regular bedtime as a way of solving the problem.

I know that my three are emotional and cranky when they're overtired because they're old enough to tell me that.

Once your child is at school daytime napping opportunities are severely curtailed and a regular bedtime is the best way to avoid tiredness.

Sakura, it's clear that you haven't dealt with a severely cranky / tired baby, or you wouldn't say all this. First point- my boy sleeps around 7-8, because that's the time he seems tired. I've never done CC to enforce this bedtime, it's just the time that seems to be his natural bedtime, & I've encouraged this, because this gives me some time with DP in the evening. What do you find so problematic about that? So don't think for a moment that having an early bed-time for children goes hand in hand with sleep training, it doesn't.
Second point- you say that they can have morning & afternoon naps. Well, not necessarily the case. When babies are overtired- and I'm surprised you don't know this- they often become hyperactive & very very cranky, & wake from jolts from their naps, cutting them short. My boy doesn't sleep more than 40-45 mins at naps, regardless of how tired he is. In fact, the more tired he is from lack of sleep at night, the LESS he seems to sleep during the day, even though he obviously NEEDS to sleep. I can see this very clearly, as he rubs his eyes, is cranky, cries a lot etc. When you say 'what's so wrong about a cranky baby' I really don't see how you're looking after the baby's best interests, because to my mind there's obviously a lot that is wrong with a very cranky baby, i.e. he/she is not having fun, is not well rested etc.

Finally, this whole thing about 'who do people do the sleep training for, the parents (themselves) or the child'. For god's sake, since when did it become taboo to want to do things for the good of the whole family, and not just the child? Since when did we decide that being a complete martyr, having no time for oneself, is the way to go? That to me is the sure route for a severely overtired family (including child), unhappy parents who lose touch with their life outside of their children, and worst of all, secretly resentful parents who feel they've done 'everything' for their children. I am completely against the idea of sacrifice, as a concept and as an everyday practice. I also really don't think it serves children well. I'm not saying wanting to have a life for oneself (even with all the changes having a baby involves) means you necessarily choose routines or sleep training. But for god's sake, for some families having an early bedtime for their children is suitable not JUST for the baby (as in our case, when the early bedtime clearly suits him) but ALSO for the parents. And what on earth is the problem with that????
Sakura, if you're so certain that you do everything JUST for your children, and never for yourself, then in my opinion you're either deluding yourself, or are on a very problematic path which won't lead to any good for either you or your children. I'm sorry I sound so harsh, but really I'm getting very annoyed by all the holier-than-thou posts by people who clearly have NO IDEA what sleep deprivation means. I've only been sleep deprived for 4 and a half months, and I can imagine that if this goes on for a year or more, I'm going to be completely depressed & extremely exhausted. And what on earth is good about that? HOW can I be a good mother when so exhausted?

Loren you have hit the nail on the head. Children who have no set pattern in toddlerhood lead to very tired children when they go to school, when as you said they can't nap and catch up, but still expect to go to bed at the same time they did before. Children of primary school age need between 10-12hrs per night to be alert the next day. Going to bed at 2100 and up at 6-630 if parents work for example, means that over the space of a week they lose a full nights sleep. This is detrimental to their schooling as they get more and more tired and concentrate less.

"Sakura, it's clear that you haven't dealt with a severely cranky / tired baby, or you wouldn't say all this"

LOL! have you stopped to wonder why she has never had a "severely cranky / tired baby"? Have you stopped to consider that what she said actually works thereby never having a 'severely cranky / tired baby'?

And by the way, Sakura, I say all this as someone who co-sleeps, breastfeeds on demand (due to the fact that DS won't accept any kind of eating schedule ) etc. I'm generally a relatively go-with-the-flow parent, partly because I'm too unorganized and/or lazy to stick to a more structured routine! I think that for a very young baby these practices feel appropriate to me. Gradually though, I want to end up having a slightly more structured life.

I also come from a country where children sleep late & are found running around in restaurants at night, and I've always- not just now that i live in the UK- found this problematic. I remember visiting friends & not being able to have a proper chat at 11 pm because their 3 year old- clearly overtired & hyper alert- would not stop talking & running up & down, & was COMPLETELY cranky. What, I ask you, is the problem with setting an early bedtime & trying to encourage it? I'm not saying enforce it against all odds... but just try to encourage it.

Foxytocin: oh really, then presumably those who don't have cranky/tired babies are those who practice attachment parenting? Interesting point of view, especially taking into account what I've just written. Even though I don't theoretically subscribe to the whole ideology of AP, in practice that's what we're doing at the moment (since DS was born) & it's done sod all for our sleep.

ButterflyEffect: very true what you say about sleep deprivation. However, surely there are degrees of sleep deprivation, and limits to what should be acceptable (or can be acceptable) for each family? I agree with you about not enjoying leaving babies to it out. I'm not sure though anyone really enjoys sleep training per se, they just see it as a necessary measure for their particular circumstances.

Interesting how I've suddenly become the CC advocate Maybe it's the sleep deprivation doing it to me...

no maria, i wasn't drawing a conclusion at all. what part of my post made you assume that? [lost] i was wondering if you have been open minded enough to reflect on what sakura said works for some people, maybe herself, I don't know, cause I am not really involved in the blow by blow of this thread.

(obviously I meant leaving babies to cry it out).

i understand even less now.

sorry.

Foxytocin: well what sakura does works for her, that seems to me a pretty obvious point. However, she has repeatedly implied that what she does should also work for others, and those who prefer an early bedtime (for god's sake, it's not as if an early bedtime is abuse!!!) are being selfish & just do it for their 'lifestyle'. I think I've written enough about all this already though, I've tried to explain what I see as problems in sakura's approach.