Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

i see we have cross posted now. I haven't subscribed to any parenting ideology / philosophy whatever it gets called. I didn't grow up in the mainstream Northern European / American culture (and neither was I brought up in a counterculture - just for clarification)
and I just can't categorise myself into any of those neat boxes by which other people seem to routinely define others - but never stopping to ask how they define themselves.

like i said, i haven't followed the minutiae of this thread but it does worry me when people say things like 'you implied..selfish'. the other side of that coin is 'i am deducing that you are saying that I am selfish.'

I did GF from 6wks with dd1 and more relaxed AP style with dd2 (now 8mths). Of the 2 children dd1 was far more content than dd2. This could be down to personality, but dd2 has become more settled since introducing GF at 6mths.
My personal view is that routine gives babies a sense of time and this leads to them knowing that certain things, like food, sleep and play will always happen at the same time. I think this makes them more secure and therefore less cranky, because they go to sleep before the obvious signs of being tired are there. When a baby is rubbing eyes, yawning, crying they are overtired and are less likely to have a full sleep. Having at least one long 2 hr sleep during the day means they can get into a deep sleep and rest well. Short naps don't have the same quality restfulness. Babies naturally wake after 45mins, the difference being that babies who have been taught to self settle go back to sleep, where as babies who have to be cuddled,rocked, patted to sleep will wail until someone comes to do it again or get them up. My dd1 never cried when she woke up, just babbled until we went in to her. DD2 is less secure because she has been self settling from a later age and wails the minute she opens her eyes.

I think this thread has become, in parts, a little unfair, and people who were previously saying 'live & let live' about other people's choices are now being more militant in opposing them and defending their own.

E.g. neenztwinz - you respond to blueshoes pointing out that she never goes into deep sleep and never feels sleep deprived with 'that sounds awful' - and implying that she must be deluding herself somehow into thinking she's not sleep-deprived because you think that deep sleep is necessary.

Well, maybe FOR YOU. But possibly not for blueshoes: why can't you believe her? And leave it at that. To post as you did is to - implicitly - undermine her choice.

Surely, after hundreds of posts, one of the most important things we - I - learnt from this thread was that everyone has to do what suits them, and their baby, best, what is most tolerable and successful.

Also, Starlight, I do think you took devoutsceptic the wrong way: probably because, after so long, you feel that people haven't quite understood your position.

This is not a battle: we don't even know each other in real life, so why the hell should we care about winning a battle of wills over whose tactics are best, whose children are more 'contented', etc. etc. etc.?

Back to discussion:

Interestingly, the most recent posts from Cote suggest to me that some people choose CC because their babies cry more, can't settle easily, need the 'help', IYSWIM. This is - to a certain extent - utterly alien to my experience. My DD is cheerful all day long, and although she can't yet self-settle, it is pretty easy (most days ) to get her to drop off, either in the sling, or in her pram, or in my arms. I've never had to hold her crying, as some describe. Neither does she cry in the night: in fact, she barely wakes, just stirs for a feed, and if she does open her eyes, drifts off again relatively easily. I too, neenztwinz, don't go into deep sleep (Dr. J. McKenna observed that co-sleeping, bf-ing mothers mimic the sleep cycles of their LOs to deal with this), and I - honestly and truthfully - feel FINE. I truly do - I'm not deluding myself!

Phew, rambling. Anyway - all I really want to say is: in the immortal words of Rodney King, "can we all get along?"

Sorry - I meant to add: and because my daughter is the way she is, it is EASY for me to choose AP-style approaches. What would I do if she were different?

Mytether... didn't you wean your dd2 at 16 wks? I kind of remember posts to that effect from you in the somewhat distant past. I think that you are being a bit disingenuous with some things in your last post. that being one of them.

sorry, i don't want to cause offence or start a flame war. so hopefully I am mistaken.

I am kinda skimming this because I know how inflamed the cc discussion can become. I feel very comfortable with my approach to enabling my kids to sleep restfully and I also followed GF's approach in parts. I think she explains her approach insightfully - but realise it is not for everyone.

I chose not to co-sleep with my kids but if it works well for other families great! I dont understand why we cant me more tolerant of other people's differing parenting techniques.

Maria

'For an attachment parent, you sound pretty ungenerous & show a profound lack of imagination. How about addressing the possibility that not all babies are the same, like Anna says?'

I don't need to adress the possibility. My 2 children are living proof that not all babies are the same.

I have never said I was an AP, and for all my faults, lack of imagination has never been suggested before now.

BUT, I believe there was more to your post than a personal attack and so would be interested in where you were going with it.

Penth

'Also, Starlight, I do think you took devoutsceptic the wrong way: probably because, after so long, you feel that people haven't quite understood your position.'

If that is the case then I'm sorry. She does appear to have had a hard time. However being called a nana and being accused of not listening when earlier posts of mine have shown quite clearly that I have been, and have even conceded on points along with CCers who have done the same, her posts were frustrating to say the least.

Hi Starlight - surely a hardened MNer like you has been called worse things than a (ba)nana?

Arf at devoutsceptic using 'nana', btw.

i have the rhino hide as the badge of Mning and had never heard anyone called a 'nana' before. I thought devoutsceptic meant a (senile/toothless)granny! [snurk]

apols to any senile toothless grans using the board.

Oh - oops. I thought she was using the child's version of banana...

devoutsceptic, please return! Which did you mean? The humorously shaped fruit, or the octogenarian?

Maria - your night sounds horrific [hugs] I know I asked you before but is the dummy really helping your ds sleep if hes now waking every 20 mins - I think I would rather go human dummy for one night because its easier to control...

I think it would be better to get rid of the dummy now and it would take maybe 2 nights of constant suckling - but then you're not getting any sleep anyway are you? Once thats gone he will sleep better - and you have to believe that - could he sleep any worse?

then when you get to 6 months etc and you're sure hes not hungry you can look again at some form of sleep training.

and Penthesileia you're right - people are becoming more entrenched - am not sure why this is though...

I haven't read all of this thread but have skimmed through a fair bit of it. Perhaps it is a bad idea to wade in here...

One thing that always strikes me is how forbidden it seems to be for a mother to want anything for herself. I put my baby to bed at 7.30pm every night. I do it because I want to spend my evenings with my husband, without our baby. He isn't a difficult baby; it wasn't because I was at the end of my tether; and it isn't because I want him to get more sleep (he sleeps pretty well).

Is that so terrible? Do people who use CC always have to explain themselves by saying how they had no other option? Why shouldn't we think of ourselves as well as our babies?

Hi starkadder - no, not at all... At least, not to me!

But you could say that - in a certain way - you did have no other option: you wanted to spend the evenings with your DH (understandable), and the way you achieved this was by sleep-training/CC...

But you shouldn't have to 'explain yourself', I agree.

My comments above about babies crying, etc., was more aimed at trying to point out that for some parents & babies there isn't an alternative, and that people who are against CC maybe (though obviously not all) don't have experience of that type of baby - I certainly don't. DYSWIM?

were aimed... sigh...

Totally see what you mean & agree.

Hi again everyone.

I'm sorry, I feel I was one of those who became a bit more entrenched in my positions- and a bit more sarcastic etc. The reason, in my case, is extreme sleep deprivation, which is getting worse & worse, interestingly, as the thread moves on Last night, for example, we literally didn't sleep at all. Not AT ALL. DS was screaming continuously, & bf all the time (I think for comfort too, out of over tiredness). He wasn't too bothered by his dummy, just wouldn't settle- in our bed, because that was of course where we had him with all that screaming. At around 4 am & when all the constant BF would just end up with him waking with a jolt & screaming (and before you ask, yes, we did give him calpol at some point) we considered ringing NHS direct to get advice. So as you can see, our sleep situation is getting worse by the day, I'm not even sure what the problem is, I just know I can't take this much longer, & I can't stand seeing my baby cry & cry all night, be cranky all day etc. We're away on holiday for 3 weeks, but when we return (when he's 5 months, at the beginning of january) I'm definitely going to be more firm & consistent in trying to find a way for him to sleep better. If that involves some crying, so be it. Not sure what else I can do if this continues, I'm simply getting more depressed by the day by the sleep deprivation.

I have to say I agree with everything Penthesileia said. Thanks for your post, it was lovely. I also agree with starkadder. I tried to make a similar point earlier, about parents doing things for themselves as well as their babies.

by the way, I still can't stand- CAN'T STAND- listening to my little boy cry. At the same time, I also can't stand not sleeping. I haven't slept now properly (not even a 2 hour stretch) for over a week. And if you add to that the fact that, since the last trimester of pregnancy, I haven't been sleeping more than 3 hours at a time, that leads to my current situation, feeling overtired, lethargic, unable to think clearly etc.

Perhaps other mothers (younger ones? I'm 35, so not that young) can take this. I cannot. Each person has to know their limits. I think if this goes on for much longer I will have reached mine.

Oh, one last thing. My poor DP really tries to give me time to sleep. For example, this morning (even though severely sleep deprived himself) he's out for a very long walk with our baby, so that I can rest. The result though is that I cannot sleep... not at 10 or 11 in the morning, I simply can't, I feel too wired. The same at 8 pm at night, I can't sleep. Maybe adults get overtired & hyper-alter too & cannot go to bed easily?

Maria You might find that being on holiday, away from your usual surroundings and routine, improves things for you. Here's hoping anyway.

I concede that if I am tired I can sleep at any time of day.

maria I've only read your past couple of threads so forgive me if I'm jumping in here blind, but have you considered that your DC has (silent) reflux? Our DD was awake most of the night and only ever went down for naps out of sheer exhaustion. We found out after many months that she had silent reflux and then she was put on meds and I altered my diet and hey presto we had a sleeping baby! Worth asking about.

Hobnob: well it's true that he arches his back a lot during feeding... and also he throws up quite a bit after each feed. But so far I thought this was normal for this age group . We did ask the GP about it, he gave us gaviscon without explaining anything, but we found gaviscon impossible to use (or at least, very difficult to persist with it) with a breastfeeding baby. How can I get him tested for reflux just to make sure that's not what's happening?