Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

devout Have you read the rest of the thread?

I was reiterating a point that has been given in proper context earlier. I'm not going to re-write everything for the benefit of newcomers.

No, you nana! I'm not talking about crying when left alone (why not jump straight into those bleak, neglected kid stereotypes,eh?), I'm talking about crying a lot, being upset generally, more prone to being miserable, restless, unable to focus even when you are actually holding and cuddling them. You know, like kids do when they are overtired! If you've never had a tired, miserable, frustrated kid cry in your arms (while you have a good old exhausted sob too) and be unable to get to sleep then you obviously just won't get it, why would you. But I really think you might listen and try to understand that your experience is not everyone's experience. And yes, of course, if it makes you happy you can say, 'oooh look! You've damaged him', if it makes you happy. But no, he's always been like this - needed a lot of help to get to sleep, which is why we gave him that help. I'd have loved a child who slept easily anywhere. How convenient. How handy for your lifestyle! In order to help my child get the sleep he needed, I sacrificed a lot of my lifestyle actually. No parties where he could be just put down on a guest bed, no meet ups at lunch time where he could sleep in his pushchair. It was not remotely in my interest actually.

devout Don't jump to conclusions. You know nothing of my experience. You do sound very bitter though.

Also, the rest of your post confirms to me that you have NOT read the rest of the thread. (If you had you would not suggest I ever have ever said anybody had damaged their child.)

Until you do so, it would be pontless me responding to your post since most responses are already there, mine would be just building on them. I'm not interested in going round in circles. This has been a forward progressive thread so far.

Oh stop with the 'you sound really bitter' (about what, exactly?) crap, please. You did jump gleefully to the conclusion (though it was nowhere at all in my post) that I was talking about a baby crying because he was on his own. And you did suggest that I had caused sleep difficulties in my child. That's pretty nasty, but hey, I'll let it go. But please don't tell me what to read in that ghastly patronising tone. It's irritating. Mind you, I love the bit about 'newcomers' like it's a local thread for local people and you don't want incomers!

Smug, that's the word I was looking for. Smug.

In a cot, in a pram, a strange bed etc is on it's own.

And your posting style comes across quite agressive and bitter.

I didn't mean to be nasty so sorry if I upset you, and I'm certainly not against newcomers, but jumping to conclusions when the evidence is actually present earlier in the thread is a bit annoying, especially in one that so far has been informative, progressive and fairly amicable.

And for the record, I didn't say you had caused sleep problems for your child. That was your own projection.

I'm afraid I won't be responding to any more of your posts. I find your tone quite unpleasant and it upsets my AP lentil-weaving Karma!

agree that children "left to their own devices" may actually sort their sleeping out. to me, CC was exactly that - a few minutes space, in the cot without a boob or dummy to see if my baby could drop off to sleep without intervention if left to her own devices.

don't agree that all newcomers should read the whole thread before commenting

agree with the fact that there is too much smugness being bandied around

don't agree that its a forward progressive thread at all. i think its just going round in circles, mainly because those anti-CC don't seem to be open to the possibility that its an entirely valid option for some parents of some individuals to help them all get better sleep - a method without any proven long-term repercussions.

don't agree that "teaching them to go to sleep" is ridiculous in that it refers to undoing sleep associations that require external intervention (boob, dummy, rocking etc)

pre-DD, I used to sometimes read, work or watch television in bed. being the complex individual that i am, it would set up negative sleep associations for me, so that i found it really difficult to drop off to sleep. a few nights of good sleep hygiene and habits would undo that issue and i could get a good night's sleep.

also agree that kids, like adults can miss their window of falling asleep and become too "wired" to sleep. some babies fight sleep - its just the type of baby that they are.

I say, to each their own. There are as many approaches to this issue as there are people .

Ah, so you think a baby in a cot or pram walking down the street or in a cafe or park with its mum is traumatisingly 'on his own'? Well, that's such an extreme stance that I think people will be able to judge your guilt-making agenda on that alone. Of course, I did actually say that my child ofen could not just 'drop off' when tired even when being held in my arms, and would cry his tired little head off, but I'm sure you'll find a way to apportion blame even in these circumstances. Actually now I come to think of it, my baby would also cry with tiredness in a sling. He was nothing if not reliable. I came eventually to realise that, as Tinseljuice points out, that cc does provide a short period of being 'left to their own devices' where they can learn that, crikey, they CAN go to sleep without any interventions, and sometimes a brief period of crying provides the necessary relief and wind-down that they need in order to settle.
I get tired of great parents being demonised and scared with talk of babies being damaged and losing trust and shutting down etc without a single scrap of evidence that this is ever so. Don't you think it is irresponsible to talk of dire consequences when there is no evidence at all for them, and all you do, for all your so called peaceable, AP love everyone talk, is induce guilt and misery.

As for it being ludicrous that you might need to help babies sleep on their own, this is exactly what is done with adult insomniacs!

"You are making an assumption that those who don't do CC are sleep deprived. They will have arranged their lives in such a way that they are NOT sleep deprived."

Really? Like, how?

If you wake up a minimum of 2 times in the night and stay awake a minimum of a half hour to an hour each time, even assuming you can get back to sleep right away (I can't), that is broken sleep. Very different than a full night's sleep.

And assuming you have other things to do in the day when baby naps (like, run after a toddler or house work), how will these hypothetical well-rested mums of night-feeding babies "arrange their lives" so as not to be sleep deprived?

Really, do tell. I am genuinely curious, because DD will be almost 4 when bump is born and I would like to hear about how not to be sleep deprived with a night-feeding baby.

DD also cried and cried and cried, regardless of where she was or who held her or for how long. Especially in early evening.

Maybe the reason why we can't seem to understand each other across this sleep-training gulf is that the other side did not have this kind of baby who would cry for hours no matter what you did. That might be why they feel it is cruel to have a baby cry for a bit, or say things like "I couldn't stand to hear my baby cry".

I was never sleep-deprived with DD, and she co-slept and night fed for ages - the first four months she pretty much slept through except for the odd snack but it didn't really wake me. After than she was a bit hungrier but it still wasn't a big deal.

The killer, IMVHO, is letting your baby cry, even for a second, and/or having to get out of bed. Both those things would have disturbed my sleep. But, the way we did it, neither happened.

Did she cry even when you let her feed, CotedAzur?

CotedAzure, the broken sleep you describe is what I experience every night co-sleeping with ds. He wakes between 2-6x per night. Generally settles quickly, but might not and take up to an hour.

I am only speaking for myself. I don't feel tired at all. I WOH Mon to Fri.

My dd had the same sleep pattern as a baby. Paradoxically, once she reliably started sleeping through (without CC), if she even woke up once and settled quickly, I felt even MORE tired than before when she followed the frequent baby waking pattern.

I read somewhere that what makes people tired is waking suddenly from deep sleep. If a baby wakes very frequently, you never achieve deep sleep - something bf-ing co-sleeping mothers would be familiar with. Every peep will wake you but you deal with the feeding quickly and slide back in when done. You don't even remember much of it.

That is how it works for me. Broken sleep does not always mean non-functional parent.

Agree Anna. I am happy to be awoken but loathe getting up (so cold!) or hear my ds cry. I just deal with it lying down, either bf-ing or cuddling him prone on my chest, with the covers still on. His little voice in the dark goes: 'mama, cuddles' - happy to oblige.

Anna - DD had 3 modes in the first couple of months: She was either sleeping, feeding, or crying. Seriously. She would feed for a while and resume crying. Then would cry her head off no matter what we did, even being rocked and sang to, or in the pram, until she dropped off to sleep. We never had those idyllic moments of a little cherub looking up at mummy all happy and content.

So believe me when I saw cutting the night feeds and hearing her cry for two nights as a result was not a big problem.

It does sound like you two had very different babies than mine.

I can see why, if your baby is the way you describe, you might be prepared to try almost anything (short of clubbing her over the head) to get her to sleep.

My DD really didn't cry much at all as a baby - she was pretty cheerful most of the day. She never needed much sleep, but she would sit/lie contentedly.

We never had that. Never could put her down and even then she would cry pretty much non-stop.

Seriously. DH and I didn't eat dinner together for months (one of us would be walking about, rocking DD in our arms), DH waited for me to take a shower & get dressed before going to work (same reason).

Then it all started getting better, shortly after she started sleeping through at 4 months. I am not going to say sleep training is to be credited for making her a happy baby. It was probably a combination of things - starting solids, end of colic, and yes, sleeping better must have helped a bit as well.

She is now the happiest cuddliest little singing/dancing monkey in the world. Gives us a kiss and goes to sleep on her own and sleeps until 7-8 AM. Wakes up singing, often says how much she loves us, is great with her friends, etc. Sorry, but nobody is convincing me that she is traumatized because she cried a bit longer than usual for two nights when she was 4 months old.

OK, but take a case like mine - a very happy baby, who really didn't cry much at all except if put down alone in a cot at night (she slept fine in her Moses basket or in a pram during the day). Who yelled and yelled if I left her in her cot, but stopped crying the instant she came into bed with me. I did actually believe (and still do) that she was really hurting when she cried like that, as it was the only time she did it.

OMG - IS THIS THREAD STILL GOING ON!!!!!

My baby cried a lot more when he didn't sleep.

I thik this post by Anna really illustrates the gulf for me:

"I was never sleep-deprived with DD, and she co-slept and night fed for ages - the first four months she pretty much slept through except for the odd snack but it didn't really wake me. After than she was a bit hungrier but it still wasn't a big deal."

My son used to lie in bed WITH ME being HELD crying for ages at night. at four months he was sleeping for no longer than about an hour, and usually less, in one stretch at night, and would stay awake, miserably, for up to three hours in between. I survived on adrenaline for the first few months and then crashed. I gained a lot of weight eating to try and get some energy. I was short tempered and borderline depressed. When I got him into a routine and then let him cry for a short time (around 20-30minutes total) in order to get him to sleep at night, and he started to sleep all night unless ill or scared or whatever, it was like a miracle.
My girls were totally different, and needed a different approach.

If you think this is a bad thread check out this one and this one!
Yes, I have found our Attachment Fundamentalists, the ones with the petition

You know what makes them the fanatics they are?
Sticking their heads in the sand in their little world,
keeping anything that might conflict with their beliefs well away.

What's so beautiful about this thread is that there are people who profoundly disagree with each other
actually having a dialogue (albeit a very tense and fractious one lol).

Yes, it's a difficult exercise but there is a lot of parenting wisdom to be gained here!

And Maria, I am sorry that I appear to be sucking up to you, but your posts are quite fantastic.
Your son is going be just fine
(Btw, I haven't forgotten your question, will revisit this thread soon.)

I really respect Anna, Starlight, blueshoes and other AP-ers (each to their own and all that even if I don't agree) but I do think it is rather patronising to suggest that those of us who actually like our babies to sleep all night have been 'conditioned' into thinking that's what we want and it is just something in our culture and is not natural. I have co-slept with my babies and I do NOT get a good night's sleep that way. It is not conditioning or anything that has made me think that we are all better off when we sleep in our own beds in our own rooms where we can't disturb each other.

Starlight, I remember from a previous post that your answer to sleepless nights is catching sleep at other times of the day. If that is the option v three nights of CC I'll take the CC thanks.

And Blueshoes - are you saying you are OK cos you never go into a deep sleep? That sounds awful. Deep sleep is important from what I gather about sleep cycles and their effect on us.

I remember for the first year of my son's life that I used to feel sick and truly dread nighttime, as that is when the nightmare began.