Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

I have to admit that after reading this thread I'm now confused as to what the definition of CC is.

It seems to be for just putting to bed initially.
It seems to range between leaving to grizzle for an hour or 2 (while popping back in to reassure baby) to something that is done over 3 days.

As none of the above would have worked for my 3m+ babies, who were unsettled early evening, I am beginning to think that the babies that it did work for would have settled anyway and just needed a bit of peace and quiet.
Babies who need contact and soothing to sleep would require an extreme version of the above to give in.

I think it has to be 6mth+ before you use CC. But I think for a baby as young as 6mths, doing it in the middle of the night is 'wrong' (I hesitate to use the word) cos you can never be sure whether a baby that young is hungry. But for older children, I have known parents who have used CC because they really are at the end of their tether with night waking and have left their toddlers to cry - sometimes this can be 3 hrs . But after three days they sleep through. I think CC has to be going in at least every 20 mins to reassure, no matter how long it goes on for. Even if you just walk in the room so the child can see you. It is about not rewarding the child for crying but I think walking in there so the child can see they have not been abandoned is not rewarding the crying at all. I think it is common sense. But I don't think leaving a child to cry for 1.5-2hrs on its own is necessarily damaging (I couldn't do it tho).

An older friend told me a story yesterday about her daughter. When she was a toddler she had a dummy, the dentist said the dummy had to go, so that night mum said no dummy and took the dummy away. Then mum went out to work leaving dad in charge. When mum came back dad said the child had cried for 2hrs before dropping off to sleep. Mum was shocked that dad would let the child cry like that. But next night the same thing happened, she went out to work and dad let the baby cry. The third night the child slept fine and didn;t cry for the dummy. The mum was glad she'd been out cos she would have given the dummy back! BTW the child is now 30 with a baby of her own and as far as I know she is not damaged in any way

So what would be the advice for a 6m+ who cried/screamed for over 3hrs. Who might fall asleep within the 3hrs but woke up again after half an hour to 1hr (just as distressed as when fell asleep) and started the whole thing again?

Lots has been said... lots of it confusing (at least to me!) So I end up feeling a bit ignorant again, as I did at the beginning of the thread

One thing though. I think we should probably steer clear of anecdotal evidence e.g. "I did CC on my children and they're fine!" or "I never did CC on my children & they sleep perfectly well". This kind of point proves nothing at all, because there will always be another person saying the exact opposite.

Another thing: I think one problem we're having is trying to prove beyond any doubt that cc or other forms of sleep training involving crying 'damage' children. Well that can't be proven- in my opinion, even with hundreds of studies, it cannot be proven-, which is probably why we're going around in circles. There is no way- and surely this is just common sense!- that one technique of sleep training can override an otherwise responsive, caring, nurturing family life & create irrevocable problems. Perhaps (as some have suggested) SOME parents who do sleep training very very easily are also more strict in other ways? Might be. But listening to Neenz, Daddy J & others who are obviously very caring & thoughtful parents makes me see very clearly that that's not the case. Another reason anything about damage cannot be proven is that the words 'damaged' or 'trust issues' etc are all frustratingly vague & mean completely different things in different families. I can easily imagine a 'responsive', attachment-parenting family with all sorts of problems. And we all know situations where perfectly wonderful parents had perfectly horrible children, and the opposite. So it's so frustratingly vague...

My personal reasons for not doing cry-it-out or CC (for the time being) are the following (and some explanation & thoughts for each):

1. I can't bear to hear my baby cry (Neenz asked about this). This is more my issue than my baby's. I do believe there are mothers who cannot bear to hear their baby cry- even for a second. I also think there are others who are perfectly fine hearing their babies cry. I don't think actually that one or the other is a good or bad thing, not when its within logical limits (obviously this is not the case when parents leave their ill children to cry, or their clearly very distressed children to cry etc). I think there's a wide range of emotional responses mothers have towards their children, and there is no way we can say 'this is good' or 'this is bad' in all cases. I know fantastic mothers who are perfectly happy to let their babies cry for a bit, & even have a sense of humour about it. They don't even let their babies cry out of exhaustion; they just do it because they believe it's a normal part of parenthood. And, equally, I know mothers who I don't admire at all who respond to their babies in a second, because they can't bear the guilt or whatever of not responding. AND THE OPPOSITE OF COURSE, before someone jumps on me. E.g. I consider myself a good-enough mother (though still very inexperienced) & yet I can't bear to put up with any crying when it comes to my boy. I'm sure this has a lot to do with the fact that I was left to cry quite a bit as a baby, and I'm told these stories again & again, so perhaps I'm trying to do the opposite. Who knows? The thing is, the reason we do these things & respond to our children this way or that are so multifaceted & different in each individual case, that I think it's a huge oversimplification to say that parents who can or cannot bear to hear their babies cry can be judged on this alone. Also- I would disagree with Cory (I think it was Cory?) who said that 'male babycare experts' are the ones who have misled mothers into not responding to their children. This kind of thinking presents mothers as passive, yet good souls who are misguided. Well I don't think that's the case. In every age there have always been horrible mothers who felt perfectly fine doing all sorts of awful things to their infants, and they didn't need any male expert to tell them to do so thank you very much. And the opposite, there have always been mothers who don't follow the fashion of the time & follow their own common sense. That doesn't mean though that there are no fashions in babycare. Sure there are. Attachment parenting is today's fashion, behaviourism was yesterday's fashion, and there's no reason to believe any of these is closer to what we call 'maternal instinct' because these instincts (as we can see in this thread) lead us to wildly different directions anyway. Making me think that there's no such thing as a 'right', 'truer' way to respond to your child.

2. Second reason I don't do sleep training: I feel that at 4 months he's probably going to suffer quite a lot DURING the training. Note: I'm not talking about any long-term damage, which I very very seriously doubt would be the case. I'm talking about not understanding what's going on & having an unpleasant (to say the least) experience DURING the training. I am open to revisiting the issue later on, after he's 6 months

3. Third reason: I also feel and hope that perhaps some children fall into better sleep patterns on their own, in time. PERHAPS. Some don't, and we all know families that suffer from extreme sleep deprivation & have to co-sleep without wanting to for years. I know them; I'm sure we all know them. Lets not pretend all children 'grow' into better sleep patterns because it's NOT the case. Some children (and parents, because they too end up exhausted) need some help to sleep better. End of story. By the way, I would say the same for adults. If an adult has insomnia, they should probably get professional advise & find a way to deal with it. It's not just a matter of luck, good sleep. There are things to be done about it- they're not always perfect techniques (and I'm sure CC is also not a perfect technique) but yes, I do believe things can be done. Still, my point is that I want to give my son a bit of time still.

Essay over! My baby just woke up (again!) & I'd better go to him. By the way. We've had a completely sleepless night (again). Surely that's not good to any of us? (my boy or me & DP?) Not that I have a solution...

Maria - DD was exactly 4 months when we did sleep training at the recommendation of her paediatrician (here in France, babies are followed by a paediatrician with monthly visits). She said this was the time to do it, and if we left it after 6 months, it would be harder. So we stopped night feeds and tried to comfort her and get her back to sleep by other means when she woke in the night - rocked her, sang to her, hugged, kissed, patted her etc. This is not really CC, but worked for us.

First night, we were all up for several hours. Second night it was less than an hour in total. She slept through the third night and sleeps through to this day (she is 3.3) except when ill.

So no, I can't say she "suffered a lot during sleep training". It was short, we were always there (never left her to cry), and it was necessary for her to forget the habit of feeding through the night and get into the habit of sleeping through the night.

It was the single best advice I ever received.

Well, that's lovely for you Anna. But it's hardly relevant for people who are sleep deprived, is it?
If everyone had babies who slept well from a young age, then this thread wouldn't exist at all.

juuule - You persist. It will only take a couple of nights for the night-feeding habit to be forgotten.

It didn't with our eldest.

How old was he when you started?

How long did you persist?

Did you ever give in and fed him to sleep?

It was 21 years ago now so the finer details are a little blurred.
But I know that we were quite strict with him. He was around 6m old as that's when I returned to work. We were advised by relatives and friends to let him cry. We spent a least one week trying in earnest. Although we were losing resolve before the end of the week. After that we decided it really didn't feel the right thing to do. We would go into him and he would be stood upright in his cot, breaking his heart crying, all snotted up and a couple of times retching. We would have this trying to get him to sleep and whenever he woke up during the night.
We tried again when he was over 12m old (thinking maybe we didn't do it quite right the first time) but probably were a bit half hearted with it as the sight of a 1yo holding himself up by his front teeth dug into the cot side, half asleep and still crying wasn't encouraging to us that we were doing the right thing for him.
I must admit that this coloured my view of this method. 21y on and 8 children later I still picture this poor child and feel sad and stupid. I still can't believe that I was so naive as to believe people when they told me this was the right thing to do and he mustn't get the better of us or 'win'. Or when we said it felt wrong, shrugged and said well...rod for your own back etc etc..

8 children!!! and Congratulations!

I understand why details would be hazy more than 2 decades on. Would it be possible that this was beyond 6 months? Just asking because standing up in his cot suggests a baby slightly older.

DD's paediatrician did say that after 6 months it got harder. A friend of mine did sleep training on her 1 yr old and it took 1 week. They didn't leave baby to cry, either.

Maybe. Not much more though.

Maria you talk such a lot of sense for someone so sleep-deprived! . I can understand not wanting to do it before 6mths, mine were 6mths when I did it and we didn;t have a lot of crying.

Cote's method seems a good balance to me - you take the dummy away but remain there yourself. Your baby cries because he is confused... he wants the dummy and hasn't got it, but you are there so there are no trust/attachment issues. Four days later he has forgotten about the dummy. That to me seems far preferable to several more weeks of sleep deprivation for you both).

Juule, I am not sure what I would do - I think it would depend on how desperate I was for it to work. I wasn't desperate when I used CC, I just wanted to set a bedtime. If we'd had 3hrs crying then more wakenings and more crying I probably would have given in. But if I really were desperate (eg night after night of several wakenings from a child old enough to sleep thru) then I would persist and just cling on to the knowledge that it would all be over in three days.

Posted that without seeing your last post Juule - wow 9 kids, well done you! Life must have been fun in your house.

Your post made me feel very sad. I can see why you gave up on CC!

'find ithard to believe that children would become sleep-deprivedif not given 'guidance''

me too

Sakura

'It really does sound like the baby is a little commodity that the mother is trying to organise because to "fit" in to her lifestyle.'

I'm afraid that is exactly my take on CC. However I wouldn't say I blame the mothers, just the culture that makes this kind of behaviour acceptable and likely to go unquestioned.

'You can't compartmentalise children's lives and give them alloted times to do particular things and then "train" them to do those things by letting them cry'

Agree totally!

juule

'it isn't a fact that a 10-12 hour sleep pattern has to be put in place at some point.'

Of course not!

'They see you but they just don't get picked up. Where is the trust issue in that?'

That's obvious. They want to be picked up, they cry to be picked up. You don't do it. They're miserable.

Although tbh ime they want boob really. At least that's always what made my DCs calm down or stop crying. Why would I want to do anything other than that in that case?

Cote You are making an assumption that those who don't do CC are sleep deprived. Very big mistake imo. They will have arranged their lives in such a way that they are NOT sleep deprived.

devout

'teaching them that they can go to sleep by themselves.'

I think this is a fairly ridiculous statement. Babies don't need teaching to go to sleep. Perhaps teaching to go to sleep when YOU want them too is a little more accurate no?

Actually my son's happiness level improved immeasurably when he was able to go to sleep by himself and sleep for a reasonable chunk of time (ie not just an hour max). Continuous sleep is important for health and development in children, just as it is for adults.

There is zero evidence that children who are encouraged to go to sleep using controlled crying methods have any 'damage' at all. There is evidence that when children sleep well they are happier, have fewer tantrums etc and parents are happier and calmer too.

Okay, but there is no evidence that a non CC child equals a child that hasn't slept well.

Which is why CC may well be entirely unnecessary.

I know the difference between my child tired and my child not tired.

I expect you do, but you don't know whether your child will be tired or not left consistently to their own devices.

Baby Starlight was just playing in her baby gym a few minutes, but now she's sound asleep. I did nothing.

step away starlight

Yes, I do, I saw it all the time, both before we got him sleeping well at night, when he would cry a lot and become very distressed, or if we were out and he wasn't in his cot he would cry and cry and no, after the first few months he couldn't sleep in his pushchair or on a sofa or the car or even in a strange bed. When he got older he would ask to go to his bed. Even now, years later, he cannot sleep unless conditions are right, and it upsets him. If you have one of those children who can drop off anywhere you are very lucky. It must be much more 'convenient' and 'fit in with your lifestyle' much better than having a child like mine, for all the insults flying.

Actually the thing about 'fit in with your lifestyle' would make me laugh a lot if it wasn't so deliberately insulting.

'before we got him sleeping well at night, when he would cry a lot and become very distressed, or if we were out and he wasn't in his cot he would cry and cry and no, after the first few months he couldn't sleep in his pushchair or on a sofa or the car or even in a strange'

It is normal and natural for babies to want/need to be close to their care givers. Being upset about being left alone is to be expected. It doesn't mean they can't sleep, only that the feel safe enough to go to sleep on/with mum.

'years later, he cannot sleep unless conditions are right'

Could this be because of sleep associations he has learned to be dependent on? I'm sorry he gets upset.

'more 'convenient' and 'fit in with your lifestyle''

You have a point, although I would say that I am very happy for my lifestyle to largely fit in with my kids. That IS my lifestyle.