Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

Try swaddling. Some babies really like it. You can take a blanket, fold into a triangle, and nurse your ds to sleep lying on it or lower him onto to it after he has drifted off. Quickly put the dummy in. Bring the ends of the swaddling cloth in and bundle him up nice and tight and snuggy.

Oooo, I love swaddling. Wish someone would swaddle me to sleep.

maria: "Going back to our CC discussion- what other ideas to people have for entrenched, difficult sleep problems (after 7-8 months) apart from CC?"

Hmmmm, I just muddle through. Weaning from nursing at 17 months cured my dd and improved her sleep no end. But there is no guarantee it would work and quite a high risk thing to do plus if your ds is not ready to wean will involve a tears or a long drawn out process.

I don't know if someone else has already suggested it. But Elizabeth Pantley has a book the No Cry Sleep Solution for gently improving the sleep of infants. She recommends it for 1+ year old babies but it is so gentle I don't see why you could not start earlier. If it does not work, she suggests stopping and trying again later. It was too gentle for my dcs.

The No Cry Sleep Solution was written with co-sleeping bf-ing mothers in mind.

I've read the no-cry sleep solution, I tried the gentle removal plan for dummies for a few days... didn't work, L. would have none of it! May try again. Not sure the solutions Pantley suggests can work for everyone.

Blueshoes- we pay lots of attention to DS's naps, I do the not-awake-more-than-2-hours thing, & he goes to sleep very very easily... but wakes at the 45 minutes point for his dummy. Sometimes he will go back to sleep (with lots of shushing & patting), sometimes not. He also sleeps in his pram, but like your baby, will wake with a jolt if it's stationary!! About the swaddling, I do think it would help with our boy, but can it really work if a baby hasn't been swaddled at all & starts at 17 weeks Would be great if it did...

sorry for hijacking the thread

maria, I don't see why you cannot swaddle a never-before-swaddled 17 month-old. The trick is to swaddle only after your ds has fallen asleep, so he is never the wiser. The dummy falling out at 45 minutes is a bugger. But what if you continuously rock him around the danger 45 min mark, swoop down when his dummy falls out to pop it back in and rock rock push push the buggy whilst shushing and patting him out of the danger zone with white noise, readjust the swaddle ....

The key with my dcs was never to let them rouse them out of sleep too much because they find it so difficult to go back down again, even if they were tired. Hence, the vigilance when they start to come into light sleep. For me, I just kept them moving or held throughout their naps. In your case, you have to pay attention to your ds' dummy. If my dc was in my arms, upon the slightest rousing, I would pop him/her on the boob to usher down the sleep path again without waking ...

You can do this as ds is your first ... but needs must.

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agree with pitchounette but would stick my neck out here (which i havent on this thread so far so please be gentle) and say that if you want to get rid of the dummy you have to follow through and do it even though its absolutely awful rather than start for a few days and then go back to it again.

I think you do have to believe thats what you're going to do before you start though and dont give yourself an out of going back - see it like bf - you knew barring mastitus and sudden unexplained no milk scenarios that you were going to do it no matter how difficult it was.

there is no good time to get rid of it and unlike the sleep it doesnt generally improve on its own but just gets harder.

Blueshoes - I forgot about the hand holding down - great tip - we did that as well but completely forgot about it.

I would also just take it from him - in three days he will have forgotten about it and will probably be sucking his thumb. But that means leaving him to cry which goes back to the OP and which I think IIRC you don't want to do. FWIW I think you were right to give him the dummy in the first place - it is cruel IMO to deny a sucky baby that pleasure when he doesn't have the co-ordination to suck his fingers/thumb. But your DS should be able to find his thumb now.

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Maria2007 I was bullied as a child by my parents and peers. I am ademant that my children will not experience this.

skidoodle I'm sorry if I'm depressing you. I DO think most parents are unprepared for life with a baby but I am in no way blaming the parents for this but wider society as a whole. Women are thrown out of hospital within hours of giving birth (because NHS resources are appallingly limited) with the expectation that their DH's will look after them and baby for 2 weeks. There is very little professional care or help available and on top of that family are often too far away to be of any practical help and women family members are likely to be in full-time work.

I believe that the economy being based on dual-income households tying up women relations, plus an NHS falling apart, plus the general competitive era we live in which means men are afraid to take paternaty leave or additional leave, plus new mothers feeling the need to always present an image of coping even if not, all contribute to the isolation of a new mother which makes her life very very difficult.

Elffriend's story demonstrates just how hard life can be and of course I believe that her circumstances WERE extreme, BUT could their effects have been less extreme if she had had more help? If her GP had been more supportive? If she had been taken seriously etc.?

Neenz I am very worried about your idea that AP leads to clingy babies. The general idea behind it is that it leads to secure and independent babies.

Maria2007 I'm sorry to hear about your sleep difficulties. I'm in the camp that says you're close to the age where things will improve naturally. Does your lo sleep with plenty of noise during the day? (If not you might want to introduce some so that they he gets used to sleeping through it.

BTW I don't believe in structured naps rather 'demand sleeping', so that they get as much sleep in a 24 hour as they need.

I also don't agree that you should take the dummy away. It may well have been a mistake but if your lo now relies on it to soothe himself then it isn't very nice to take it away just because YOU decide he can no longer have it today, but he could yesterday iyswim.

starlight - no its not very nice but it will be even less nice later on. It can be taken away in a gentle way though - it doesnt have to be done cold turkey.

I wish I had a dc that had fallen asleep when it was tired in a 'demand sleeping' like way - mine always just got more and more tired and then imploded.

Why will it be less nice later on? Surely the point of taking it away now is to improve sleep. If this can be achieved without taking the dummy away then there is no later on.

giant Would your DC not have fallen asleep at the breast?

or bottle.....

just because I think taking a dummy away is harder as they get older and it takes longer.

yes my dcs fell asleep at the breast when they were young and then stopped when they got a bit older - what do you do then?

But were they screaming then?

I dunno. I gave my DS breast whenever he cried. Sometimes he would go to sleep, sometimes (usually) not, but he never got himself into the frenzy you describe, - but he did feed almost every 2 hours!

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'I also don't agree with giving the breast whenever a child cries.'

I REALLY don't understand this. How can you not agree with it? You might decide you wouldn't like to do it yourself but what exactly is not to agree with?

(However, my DS only seemed to cry when he was hungry though, even though it was every couple of hours)

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Hi girls again,

Thanks so much for discussing my dummy situation. Well my dummy situation really shows how things with CC or other ways of dealing with sleep problems are not so clear cut (i.e. you either do it or not). I agree completely with what Pitchounette says- for us it doesn't feel like an option to take the dummy away right now, because DS is a VERY sucky baby & I can't just do it cold turkey, lets say I'm too chicken (lots of poultry in my phrase, chicken, turkeys...!!!)To be honest, though, I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing either for me & DP, or for my son. Today, for example, after an appalling night of far too little sleep, my boy was extremely cranky & obviously tired all day. Sometimes I think- am I not doing something as a mother that would influence his sleep for the better? I really really am hoping that what Starlight says is true, that with time our problems with pass or at least improve, & that's what we're holding out for at the moment. However, I instinctively am more convinced by what Giant says,that perhaps with time the problem will become more entrenched, and will be more painful to deal with for all of us. I feel that in the particular case of my baby, cutting it cold turkey right now is not an option, it would be wrong for the moment (even though he's completely able nowadays to suck on his hands, in fact, he does that too whenever he doesn't have his dummy). But I'm haunted by the thought that perhaps I'm wrong, that maybe if I just went cold turkey it would mean better sleep for all of us.
Which explains why I feel controlled crying or any such method is not so black & white. By the way, if I were to cut DS's dummy, I'd be hugging him & cuddling him all the way through, & comforting him in other ways... I just am sure that that would not be enough, & he would scream his head off, and I just can't do that to him.

Final thought though. I'm finding that with the total lack of sleep- we're lucky when we get 1-2 hours undisturbed sleep- I'm feeling more & more down, have no energy, & haven't been enjoying my time with my boy in the day, as much as I used to. I would hate for my first year of motherhood to be lost in a fog of sleeplessness & bad feelings. Not that this thought leads to any action. Just describing how I'm feeling.

Pitchounette, agree completely with what you say about the breast. My boy used to be on my breasts ALL THE TIME for the first 6 weeks of his life. Now he eats well, puts on weight normally, & at times eats a lot (e.g. during growth spurts). Very rarely though does he use the breast for sucking / comforting. He has done it a couple of time when a bit ill (with a cold) but other than that, he turns to his dummy or his lovey or cuddles for comfort. I agree that the breast & food should NOT be the answer to anything, we should be able to provide other ways of comfort as well. Anyway, that's how I see it.

starlight - i dont agree with offering the breast every time they cry.

if so then today I would have offered it on the school run cos dd was bored in the buggy, on the changing mat because she doesnt like the vest going on, um in the high chair cos shes a bit sick of lentils? come on...

how do you learn to read your babies cues if you offer the breast every time?

maria - sorry for how you're feeling - i know that tiredness and its a terrible place to be. If you had to hold him all night to get rid of the dummy - would it be that different to what you've got going on at the moment? It doesnt sound like the cosleeping is working either tbh.

If someone else had just described your scenario to you - what would you say to them objectively?

Maria, just wanted to tell you that I know how you are feeling, as - 6 yrs on - I still wonder whether it was vaguely my fault if ds slept so little in the first months of his life.
I'll never have an answer of course. When I'm feeling particularly self confident I put it to ds's dodgy biorhythm .

But in my experience things really improved as time went by, as ds's digestive system improved. Ds took to solid food with great enthusiasm and as soon as he started to have a huge meal at night, he started to sleep for longer stretches of time.
I will now admit I did my own version of cc when he was 8 months, just to let him get used to falling asleep lying down rather than rocked in my arms (and I had to rock him while pacing up and down the room, he was getting really heavy).

I'm sorry I have not much experience about dummies, as both dc never took to dummies (nor did they suck their thumb - grrrrrr) but no, I think I wouldn't get rid of it for the time being.