Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

Just because you offer a breast does not mean a baby will want it. For a young baby, it is fine to start with the breast. And start eliminating from there.

For the examples you gave, giantsanta, if it would not have been convenient to offer the breast, I don't think starlight would have done it. It is very natural for a bf-ing mother to offer the breast. If it works, you continue to do it. If it does not consistently, as for maria, then it stops. Different babies.

I could never distinguish between my babies' cries BTW. They were all of the urgent variety.

Lol at the urgent variety. I lived with my breasts on constant offer for the first 6 months of ds's life. He lost interest for them when he discovered pasta.

no I know blueshoes I was just being slightly facetious cos of the tone of starlights post and the fact that her dc didnt cry when not hungry which I thought was a bit .

I was just saying that other babies do cry. and cry a lot and you need to have other strategies available.

And once the baby is past newborn I think its a very tricky subject isnt it - and not the point of this thread.

maria, you were worried about your ds' sleep problems becoming entrenched and it becoming harder to correct them later.

To that I will say, that even if you don't do anything, your ds' sleep issues will resolve themselves on their own to a certain extent. As he matures, his sleep cycles get longer, he spends more time in deep sleep and goes more quickly from light sleep into deep sleep. My very very light sleeping dd can now drop like a stone into deep sleep where she stays despite ds crying in her ear.

And if there are any 'bad habits' like dummy use, my babies were very strong willed to begin with so this argument about being easier to take something away when they were babies did not apply to them. If anything, it got easier when they were older. Very soon, your ds will be able to understand speech and you can explain alternatives to him, like 'no dummy, cuddles'. If your ds is even older, you can appeal to his sense of pride ('big boy') or use bribery. It is also less difficult to listen to an older child cry - you would be used to tantrums by then and more experienced in setting limits and gentle discipline. You can also have discussions and prepare ds mentally. So much more strategies open up to you once your ds is older.

starlight - [warms to task even though she knows she shouldnt] so do you think that all ccing or any other form of sleep tweaking occurs out of bottle feeding and that we would all be ok if we just offered the breast every time?

and if its ok to have other strategies when the breast isnt convenient why isnt the same true for tiredness - that you can have other strategies other than the breast?

Yes, i wholeheartedly agree with blueshoes.

Giant, good question, if I were to think of my situation objectively what would I suggest... hhhhmmmm

.......

Well that's just it. I can imagine 2 arguments, both equally valid:

1. Maria: get rid of the dummy now, do it now while he's small, later it'll be harder both for him & for you. You need to help him sleep, that's your responsibility as a mother. Do it while cuddling him, offering him other forms of comfort, encourage thumb sucking, but be persistent and JUST DO IT. Crying won't damage him in the long run, after all, you'll be right there next to him while he's crying. And in any case you'll be a better mother throughout the day because you'll be less tired. It'll mean a possibility of better sleep for all of you, surely that's a good thing. It'll also mean more time for you & DP, you're becoming isolated from each other due to tiredness. Be brave, parents need to make decisions, to be persistent & stick with them- and follow plans through. Don't shy away from your responsibilities as a parent.

2. Maria: He's too young for radical changes of this kind. He loves his dummy, he finds comfort in it. Plus, what your instinct is telling you- that he would take it badly & he would be crying hysterically for days- is important. Follow your instincts, you know your child best, & wait a few months. If the situation gets worse, get help from someone who knows their stuff, e.g. a good, (not cry-it-out oriented) sleep consultant. But for now wait it out. Children change with development, and your child seems to be a sensitive boy, try to respect that & give him time & space. Solid foods might also help! Other things that you can't foresee right now might also help. Wait it out a bit more... there's always a time in the future when you can make changes, if that's what is needed.

See?! I find both arguments equally convincing to be honest. Which convinces you more, I wonder? Argument 2 is what I'm following for now, feeling in my heart that it's what's best for us... but I constantly wonder whether argument 1 is in the end more right, and whether I'm not being a good enough mother by not resolving the situation...

Maria 2007. You have described my experience completely with the dummy. my DD (5 months old today) is addicted (!) to the dummy and I rue the day I ever started using it.

I have also tried various methods of getting her to sleep without it - all unsuccessful. I don't want to let her cry it out as it doesn't work for us - she is a lovely baby normally and don't see how I can turn her world upside down and take it away now. I'm trying to introduce a cuddly toy prop which DD1 used successfully (although she chucks this out of the cot and won't sleep without it which is a whole new thread) aside from the fact i absolutely cannot let her cry for long during the night as it wakes DD1 up (22 months).

Nap times are only 40 minutes long - she will come out of her light sleep - no dummy in and wake herself up - various degrees of getting her back to sleep

Night time - lots and lots of times of plugging it back in - we co-sleep (well up until tonight!) so I do it in my sleep now.

I have put her in a cot next to my bed tonight so we'll see how it goes. How does this resolve itself? I have no idea - I guess I'm kind of hoping as she gets older she will start to find it herself when it falls out.

Dummies should come with a warning - can't see this getting better anytime soon - no obvious answer - very tired zzzzzzzzzz and slightly depressed at the thought of this going on for potentially a long time yet.

Maria 2007. You have described my experience completely with the dummy. my DD (5 months old today) is addicted (!) to the dummy and I rue the day I ever started using it.

I have also tried various methods of getting her to sleep without it - all unsuccessful. I don't want to let her cry it out as it doesn't work for us - she is a lovely baby normally and don't see how I can turn her world upside down and take it away now. I'm trying to introduce a cuddly toy prop which DD1 used successfully (although she chucks this out of the cot and won't sleep without it which is a whole new thread) aside from the fact i absolutely cannot let her cry for long during the night as it wakes DD1 up (22 months).

Nap times are only 40 minutes long - she will come out of her light sleep - no dummy in and wake herself up - various degrees of getting her back to sleep

Night time - lots and lots of times of plugging it back in - we co-sleep (well up until tonight!) so I do it in my sleep now.

I have put her in a cot next to my bed tonight so we'll see how it goes. How does this resolve itself? I have no idea - I guess I'm kind of hoping as she gets older she will start to find it herself when it falls out.

Dummies should come with a warning - can't see this getting better anytime soon - no obvious answer - very tired zzzzzzzzzz and slightly depressed at the thought of this going on for potentially a long time yet.

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giantsanta, I don't understand what you mean about CC and sleep tweaking arising out of bottlefeeding. Offering the breast is one strategy if you bf but clearly does not work in all situations, nor does it work consistently, nor does it retain its miracle properties as babies get older. Lol, franca and your ds discovering pasta!

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Just that starlight was implying that offering the breast was the cure for everything so therefore if people werent doing that then it must be to do with bottlefeeding.

Pitchounette - thats quite a strong thing to say. What happens then when people get to the end of their tether and then do ccing? How do we know what primary caregivers felt about their babies in the past (surely this is class based etc) - and people on this thread have been touting evolutionary psychology - so some of the past is more equal than others as well as some instincts?

Pitchounette, your 4-5 month old dc sounds rather dextrous.

Hi Maria. me again. I've been reading everything you have been saying on here. I just wanted to mention again our situation and getting rid of the dummy. I was so like you. I never let DD cry, hence why she had the dummy. I was adamant we would keep the dummy as she was so sucky. The thought of her crying was unbearable. But we did it cold turkey as she wasn't getting enough sleep, never mind us. As you know, I stayed with her the majority of the time. She did cry but she was crying because she wanted to sleep and she quiclky learnt how to do it wihthout the dummy. She is still very sucky but has sucked her fingers ever since we took away the dummy.

I think it was the best thing we could have done for her as she sleeps beautifully, unless something is bothering her/unwell (and then we go to her immediately).

We did it without cc. Now we can all sleep well.

Pudding - I was just sitting here thinking I would could take the dummy away and be there to soothe her through it if she were an only child. (then I read your post!) however I'm not and DD1 is not the best nighttime sleeper as it is - can you think of a way to do this - without sleeping in separate houses??

I don't mean to make a joke of it - in fact my DH and I are at daggers at each other most of the time through lack of sleep.

Got to go - dummy plug in calling or pehaps feeding

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Pitch - No I know what you're saying I just dont agree with it. From what I can understand of my mothers parenting style it didnt follow the mores of the day - for a start she bf my sister and I when most people didnt. She was so strongwilled I feel sure that she would have done what she felt. Unfortunately I cant ask her so am not influenced by what she would have said to me only what she did.

I think people choose to do ccing because they think it will have their babies going down at a certain time and self settling and being less cranky etc etc...

doctors may well have thought that a baby didnt feel pain - am not sure all mothers would have agreed though.

Not all people follow the prevailing fashions of the day vis a vis parenting - just as they dont now...

Sunshine -how old is your other child? If they are old enough, could they have a sleepover at grandparents for a couple of nights while you dummy ditch with the baby?

oh and sunshine - we've got a good cuddly giraffe toy that dd loves to hold just as she falls asleep - she will turn over, grab it and sort of rub it over her face and fall asleep. I must get round to telling the person who gave it to us as a gift how fab its been.

Erm, does it not depend how old the baby is? Our oldest is nearly 8 years and I can't really remember with her, but our DD2 is nearly 15 months and we are just at the stage of starting to leave her when we've been in, and we know she's ok. I realised that after getting up several times a night that she had just gotten used to us going in when really she could retrieve her own dummy now (something our first didn't have) so we have slowly been leaving her a little longer (and incidentally feeding her more in the eve which the nursery suggested - that helped!) and she has been better. We shower her with love and affection during the day and soothe her at night when we think she needs it and she is perfectly happy. Babies and kids know when you love them, (I think) but I do think that CC is better after they are a certain age and I certainly wouldn't do it when they are too young, because that is just heartbreaking as they aren't just pushing buttons, they need you. Sorry this is a long post, but I do think the age you try CC is everything and certainly there is a place for it. Esp for parents that haven't had a nights sleep in two years!(Or more)

I think a good example of this is Amberc's experience.

IMHO!

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giantsanta I offer the breast, if that works then great, if it doesn't I look for other clues. Usually it works though! I really don't think it matters what the problem is provided you can make an unhappy child happy. For example a child might fall over and hurt their finger. You won't be able to remove the pain, but you can introduce a new toy to distract them and make them feel better.

You remark about implying that I think CC is a result of not bfing I found a little cheap. I have made many references in this thread to my belief that is our culture being quite unsupportive of new mothers that leads to people needing to seek out strategies such as CC.

WRT my 'tone'. I'm sorry if you think I have one. I'm enjoying this discussion and have learnt a lot. My questions, statements, tone even, are an attempt to keep the flow going and to learn more, not to have a bickering session - just so we are clear, which is why I found your reference to bf/ff when we all know what an emotive subject it can be, a little tacky!

Starlight, don't be worried that I think AP leads to a clingy baby. I think it probably can but not saying it definitely does. Who cares what I think anyway? That is not the reason I don't do AP anyway (whatever 'AP' actually is, as we have discussed most of us do a mix of everything really just to muddle through).

I do agree tho with putting a baby to the breast when it cries. I always did this with my twins (except when doing CC of course) and it worked for me. Interestingly, my SIL (the one mentioned in the OP - who would never use CC) never puts her son to the breast unless it is feed time ie three hours since his last feed. Sometimes he screams and screams and she is always making excuses not to feed him... ('oh, he is tired, he's got wind etc etc). i just think 'will you f'ing feed that poor child!'

I just don't know how she reconciles this with her views against CC.
Still have a couple of pages to catch up on but they are my thoughts on p24!