Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

"It is well known that newborn humans are not born with an in built sleep-wake cycle, hence why they wake their parents up in the middle of the night. During the early weeks of life the sleep-wake cycle freeruns, with newborns sleeping for up to 16 hours a day. By about 6 weeks of age, the sleep-wake cycle has a period of about 15 hours, diminishing to 24 with time." (Kleitman and Englemann)

Maria - like I say, you are panicking too soon. 16 weeks is, in biological terms, the turning point for the human body actually being developmentally capable of a proper sleep-wake cycle (and of course, like all developmental milestones, 16 weeks is just a guideline - it could be later, just like walking, talking, toilet training...).

You are projecting adult expectations and frustrations upon a child who is just being normal for his age.

IMO, the dummy is a mistake.

Why don't you try co-sleeping/breastfeeding with no dummy?

I hope you're right. And by the way, I find it quite offensive to be saying to someone who hasn't slept for months & months that I'm projecting adult expectations etc just because I'd like to do whatever I can to help my child sleep better (by the way I think my baby is completely exhausted, he is cranky during the days & wakes with a jolt from naps- and during night-time sleep). I don't have a solution, and I agree with what you say (and hope you're right) that in time this will pass. But please don't treat someone who is exhausted as just someone who is 'projecting adult expectations & frustrations onto their baby'. I suppose you were really chirpy & happy & always patient & never tired when your babies weren't sleeping for months on end?

Needless to say, I do not agree with your examples.

You cannot instruct a child in how to be niceto be people. They learn by example and by trial and error.

I AM CO-SLEEPING ANNA, I have written this many times, I do it because I have to, otherwise I'd be going back & forth to his room every half hour. It still doesn't work, he still wakes us ALL NIGHT LONG even though we co-sleep. I am also breastfeeding him. He will have none of it. He is completely dependent on his dummy. Cutting it would mean extreme crying (I've tried for a minute or two, I can't even imagine stopping it completely). Saying to someone 'the dummy is a mistake' (which by the way I agree with, I hate the day I introduced the dummy!) is very easy. So how do you propose we stop using it?

My baby slept, Maria2007 - in my bed, co-sleeping and breastfeeding. I had no pre-conceptions about this before giving birth - it was just the way it turned out, and meant that we both always had a restful night.

However, I am very sceptical of anything that interrupts a child's natural development of her biorhythms. One of my oldest school friends is a bigwig worldwide professor of biorhythms - plants, primarily, though he knows all about animals and humans too - and he is a great proponent (in private) of avoiding all the things that the babycare industry has invented with no understanding of biorhythms or their development to "help" parents with their baby.

Take the dummy away now and let him suckle instead. He'll forget about it.

OK....And of course, as I'm sure you can imagine, that will involve days of crying. So isn't that a form of controlled crying- regardless of whether I'd cuddle him through it? I did try it for half a day, by the way, in the early days of giving him the dummy, and it involved HYSTERICS, him turning red in the face, screaming as he's never screamed before, not wanting to bf, not napping etc. In desperation by bedtime we gave it to him. He sighed, & immediately slept. We are simply not prepared to have him go through that level of crying again. I'm just saying, my example (and I'm sure the examples of many others) just goes to show that things are not so neat & easy when it comes to parenthood. And I'm sure this is something we can agree on.

Have you tried to guide his thumb to his mouth?

What does he do during the day when he is not sleeping?

maria - we had exactly the same problem with the dummy and had to get rid of it around this time - though i do think that the 4 month old waking is developmental as they're trying to learn how to roll over etc and once it is passed they do go for longer stretches - saying that they will still wake up and root for the dummy if you havent got rid of it.

we stopped using it in the night first by stroking and shhing really loudly in dds ear and then stopped settling down with it by doing the same winding down routine every night but sitting holding dds hand and shhing and stroking her rhythmically - there may well be some crying and if you really cant bear any at all then anna suckling idea is the way to go...

maria - I know you're cosleeping cos its the right thing for you but if you werent why would it mean being in another room? Cant the cot be at the side of the bed? I found that the best way - I could still feed a few times a night and reach over and stroke/shh etc but we werent waking eachother up.

maria - you could also replace the dummy with another prop thats easier to get rid of like some really loud white noise and then gradually lessen the volume?

Maria and Neenztwinz, I think I misunderstood you re examples of negotiating.

There are parents out their who don't negotiate anything. Dinner time is dinner time! My example was more in opposition to that kind of parenting.

But as I am definitely NOT the kind of parent who negotiates everything, I think I should but out of this now!

I hope you get some more restorative sleep soon Maria.

out there
(cringes)

Anna: Yes, he already sucks on his mouth quite a lot... He still seems to prefer the dummy & absolutely needs it for bedtime (and naps). In the day, when he's not sleeping, he babbles/gurgles a lot, tries to roll over, we read books to him (very simple ones obviously), listen to music, that kind of thing. He generally seems tired & cranky though, & that seems to be increasing. Really hoping it'll pass.

Giantsantasacks: Yes I agree about developmental changes, he's really changing a lot these days! As you say- he's frustrated about trying to roll over & not quite managing it yet I like your way of stopping the dummy... the only thing is, I have the feeling that with my boy this couldn't quite work, he gets very very agitated even when he doesn't have the dummy for minutes. As for the co-sleeping. In his first 6 weeks we completely co-slept & all he did was suckle on my breasts, and would wake with a jolt everytime I even MOVED. In desperation, we gave him the dummy (which I regret... but that's what we had to do at the time). Then we gradually moved him to his cot next to our bed, which didn't work because we had to tiptoe around the room, it woke him up every time we moved or even entered the room (I think he's a sensitive baby to noises etc) And then 2 weeks ago we moved his cot to his own room, which he's taken to very very well for naps, & goes down easily at bedtime (until he starts waking!) That gives me space to sleep in our own room at least for a few hours, while DP goes to him & replugs his dummy... & then after midnight or so we bring him to our bed. Not ideal, I know, but it seems to work ok for us so far, as an interim solution.

Do you sit him in a little bouncy chair? Does he watch you doing things? My DD used to find watching me doing the ironing very soothing at that age: I used to put the bouncy chair level with the ironing board so that her vision was fixed on the clothes I was ironing.

(I'm just trying to pass on random ideas to help you think of things that might make your DS less agitated).

Do you lie down on the floor with him and do "gym"? This used to make my DD laugh like crazy. Still does, actually (she's 4).

does he have the dummy during the day? I think if you start by getting rid of it during the day first and then move onto nights maybe? as you say if hes cranky and tired anyway during the day then you wont have much to lose.

am off out now but will be back later to see if anyone has any other ideas.

oh and my dd loves her bumbo - have you got one or could you borrow one?

Thanks for all the ideas Anna & Giantantasacks. Yes, we have a bouncy chair & he loves it & spends quite a bit of time in it watching me & DP. We also spend some time on his playmat. I think that with everything else, apart from sleep, he has completely normal reactions, he's a happy, very sociable boy,laughs a lot etc... but these days because of less & less sleep, he seems to me SO tired. And since we've made a decision with DP to not try CC- at least not for the next few months & then we'll see- we're a bit at a loss as to what to do to help him & ourselves...

maria, if your ds wants the dummy, give it to him.

Don't give the boob, unless you want to be a human dummy. Believe me, if my dcs would take a dummy, I would gladly give it to them because a human dummy is the most difficult thing to resolve and very uncomfortable way to sleep for you, plus you can never leave the bed (eg to stay up with your dh) and once you get to teething and bloody duck nibbling you want to strangle your ds so DON'T GO THERE.

I remember around 17 months the startle reflex is quite strong - perhaps that is knocking the dummy out of our ds' mouth and waking him. Perhaps you could try swaddling. I recall sleeping next to my ds and lightly holding his hands down. I still do it now when he starts to scratch his eczema.

Even when my dcs' sleep was the worst and they were waking lots, or up for long periods, dh and I find our thoughts turning CC-ward, but just before we toughed it, these bad habits would magically disappear and give you a goodish stretch. After the fight has gone out of you, these nasty sleep demons will flare up. So it is going to be a bit like this for a while until your ds is ready to sleep for longer stretches. Hang in there.

Does your ds still wake up to feed? If not or infrequent, then could your dh relieve you at the co-sleeping post?

maria, if your ds wants the dummy, give it to him.

Don't give the boob, unless you want to be a human dummy. Believe me, if my dcs would take a dummy, I would gladly give it to them because a human dummy is the most difficult thing to resolve and very uncomfortable way to sleep for you, plus you can never leave the bed (eg to stay up with your dh) and once you get to teething and bloody duck nibbling you want to strangle your ds so DON'T GO THERE.

I remember around 17 months the startle reflex is quite strong - perhaps that is knocking the dummy out of our ds' mouth and waking him. Perhaps you could try swaddling. I recall sleeping next to my ds and lightly holding his hands down. I still do it now when he starts to scratch his eczema.

Even when my dcs' sleep was the worst and they were waking lots, or up for long periods, dh and I find our thoughts turning CC-ward, but just before we toughed it, these bad habits would magically disappear and give you a goodish stretch. After the fight has gone out of you, these nasty sleep demons will flare up. So it is going to be a bit like this for a while until your ds is ready to sleep for longer stretches. Hang in there.

Does your ds still wake up to feed? If not or infrequent, then could your dh relieve you at the co-sleeping post?

Blueshoes, thanks so much for all you wrote! I agree completely, my boy used me COMPLETELY as a human dummy for the first 6 weeks. Which may seem normal- but the way he did it was unbearable to me, it meant I could literally not move, not sleep, not do anything. He's a very sucky baby, I feel. Now that he has the dummy, he just uses the breastfeeding to eat & then turns to his dummy for extra suckling. Which up to a point is great- and it felt SO liberating at the beginning- but is now turning into a nightmare of its own. I really am hopeful after reading what you say, that somethings just work themselves out. Amen!!
As for feeding, yes, he wakes for feeds, usually once around 12 & once around 4. That's not a problem with me at all, if it were only that I'd be a happy woman. Sometimes I express a bit of milk & DP gives him the 12 o'clock feed, but recently DS is also not very happy with the bottle (he goes through phases with that). Actually he must be going through a growth spurt the last couple of days, because suddenly he's feeding every 1-2 hours through the night & day, which is very unusual for him, but again, I'm happy to go along with that for just a few days, what I hate is the dummy replugging.
I've thought about swaddling because yes,he has a startle reflex & knocks the dummy out with his hands- that's why it falls. But not sure you can actualy swaddle for the first time at 17 weeks? We often do what you describe, hold his hands down, while he plays with our fingers , so that he can sleep... He really disturbs himself (plus knocks the dummy out) with his hands.

Anyway. Again thanks for everyone's suggestions. Going back to our CC discussion- what other ideas to people have for entrenched, difficult sleep problems (after 7-8 months) apart from CC?

maria, you say your ds is cranky for lack of sleep during the day. How does he nap?

I found I had to take quite a managed approach to ds' naps during the day if he was to get the sleep he needed. That meant taking note of the times during which he would get tired (usually 2-3 hours after his last nap) and then either nurse him down or, when he got older and nursing did not work, take him out for a walk in the buggy. To ensure he got a good stretch of sleep, I would hold him or walk him around/rock him throughout his nap because if I put him down or the buggy went stationary, he would wake prematurely and be cranky. It could be the difference between 1 hour's sleep or 2 hours' sleep which is a big deal for a baby. If he needs the dummy to sleep, I would just hold it in and try to do something compatible with that during that time, like reading a book. Both my dcs needed white noise to stay asleep, so I would put music on a loop.