Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

I didn't say DS went to maternelle in nappies.

He went to the Halte Garderie in nappies and there was absolutely no pressure to toilet train him from any childcare professional.

But 'well-meaning' neighbours certainly made 'still in nappies at his age' style comments.

Sorry Neenztwinnz, we have really taken this off the original subject.

Oh dear Auld sounds awful!
I don't have the cat anymore, you are more than welcome to chat on the little italy thread, so that we can cry on each other shoulders over the school reforms? Penthe, you are welcome as well if you want to chat about NM. Everyone is of course welcome (gosh I sound like my old PR self!)

Indeed, we will see... .

And like Penthe I thought you were referring to the real Pernod

and lol at neenz for having reached so many posts

'I do think those first few weeks/months can be harder than people anticipate in terms of sleeping and feeding etc. - even when there aren't medical problems. I also think that the scale of PND is glossed over. We are definitely presented with a rosy image which can be very unhelpful.

All that love at first sight and "tired but happy" stuff. If you don't fell like that it can feeli like a crushing failure. Perhaps this is why people turn to books to tell them the "right" answer.'

So do we find a way to make our DC's fit in with our expectations, or work to change the expectations of society?

I think you have to do both starlight but we can only do so much at once...and sadly if you've got no family you cant exactly change that

Auld I posted a message on the reform on the MN little italy thread 8 for you

Message withdrawn

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I wondered what taking into ed meant .

I also read a few books but mostly have taken my parenting style from my sister (Gina Ford devotee) and my mum - they have seven kids between them.

Some AP questions: is the negotiation part a real learned skill? I have seen parents negotiate with the kids and must admit I have always thought 'you shouldn't be negotiating, you are the parent, you decide what happens'. And most of the time I don;t think the child understands the negotiation. They certainly don't co-operate. For example, trying to get a child to put his shoes on. There shouldn't be any negotiation IMO. What about things like dinner time - what if the child wants to sit in front of the TV but you want him to sit at the table. Are you really only negotiating to get what you want (but making him think it has been a negotiation)? Give me some examples where negotiation happens and you end up with a compromise.

As to expectations:

I don't think there is any way you can really prepare someone for what it's going to be like to have their own child until it has arrived. So I think all attempts at expectation management are slightly pointless. Also, given that people's experiences, circumstances, and babies differ so much, I'm not sure that there is any useful way this can be done.

Starlight I'm finding your posts increasingly depressing. Instead of embracing the big adventure of parenthood and figuring it all out as we go along, you seem so keen to make sure we are all thinking the right way before we even begin.

I think I might be the anti-blueshoes - I did not expect to use a routine (I only found out about them on my ante-natal board on MN when people were talking in hushed tones about GF). All the babies in my family are what blueshoes diplomatically calls "high needs", poor sleepers, very hard work when they are small.

My Mum and all her sisters breasfed, some to nearly school age. The aunties all co-slept and when we were deciding what cot to get we kept getting told "I have one I used for my lot, well it's basically brand new " My expectation was that the first year or so would be mayhem, that we would get no sleep, and that LO would sleep in our bed.

I remember breaking the news to DH that our child was not going to be like his niece. I had never come across a baby like her - slept really well all night, very quiet and placid and easy. I explained to him that we wouldn't be getting a baby like that.

It didn't occur to me that I would get a baby like his family. My sister had a baby in July, and he is a much more cuddle, inward-facing, sleeps in parents arms baby than DD, but he too sleeps most of the night now. My mother is baffled. She thinks it's hilarious. (And also probably secretly that there is no justice in the world, if she now doesn't get to see our babies put us through what she went through with us )

If DD was like the baby I was expecting I'm sure I would be doing things totally differently. I'm doing things this way because this is what seems to work with her. This is how I've responded to how she is.

I'm simultaneously terrified that things I've done or will do will damage her and completely sure that they will. There is no perfect parents, there's just us, doing our best. I will never intentionally hard her, but I'm sure she'll grow up imperfect and I'm sure that I will have a hand in that. But I hope I'll also have a hand in all the great things I know she'll turn out to be and do.

I'm mostly trying not to sweat it too much.

Skidoodle, I always knew I'd use a routine and now, every time I take my babies up to bed for their naps (every day, 9am and 12 noon) knowing they are going to go to sleep without any fuss, I think 'this is wonderful'. I really can't understand this AP thing! Seems to me to be wanting a clingy baby (not trying to stir things up here, just my opinion).

skidoodle, lol. I was promised that after a shocker of a dd, my second (ds) would be an easy baby ... ds showed his true colours all too soon! So AP is it again. BTW, our cot was never used for sleeping.

Neenz, I have no idea what you mean about wanting a clingy baby. Some babies ARE clingy. AP was my reaction to that. Trust me, if I had my way, I would not still be spending my nights with ds prostrate on my chest, which is his current fave way of settling back down after waking.

neenz - once I heard about routines, I must admit they did sound amazing because I had some experience of what more difficult babies could be like, but I thought a baby that slept through the night was an impossible dream. DD started sleeping 11-7 at 8 weeks. I think she would have done it sooner if I hadn't kept picking her up for a feed at the slightly whimper.

Having done it once, I would definitely try to replicate this with subsequent DCs because although I have found being a parent hard work, for me it has been "tired but happy" and crazy about my baby. I credit all of that to the fact that I've mostly been sleeping well and so has DD. But I do not presume I'll get another baby like DD. I'll probably get one like me

I have always assumed that the baby determined the parents. I guess it's impossible to know. I know that if my DD had been "high-needs" I would be doing things differently. But perhaps one of the reasons she is as she is is because of things I did when she was tiny, without having any idea of why I was doing them. But maybe not. Who knows?

I just don't think you can ever really know how you would have been with a different child (or in your case, children )

Personally I just always believe what parents tell me about their children - if they say that their child needed to be rocked to sleep each night I accept that. How could I possibly know better than them?

Also, I think that there is a lot to be said for "clingy" babies, in the same way that more independent ones are brilliant in their own way.

Yeah, I can see that AP can be a response to a child's personality rather than the cause of it. I might be back here in a couple of years with a 'clingy' baby of my own.

"Give me some examples where negotiation happens and you end up with a compromise"

Well in our house for example, eating elsewhere than at the table is not negotiable. But if DD is busy making beds for her soft toys, and the food was the sort that could wait a little, we might negotiate about how many soft toys she puts to bed before coming to the table.

Example of a negotiation and compromise:

DD (4) needs new tights for school. We go to the tights shop. We both look. I like some plain grey ribbed tights. She sees some pale pink tights with embroidered flowers up the side and wants those ones. I tell her I don't like them at all. I then see the same model of tights with embroidered flowers, but in dark grey. I ask her what she thinks. She says - I quite like them, but I still prefer the pink.

I say - let's have a think, and we'll ask Papa what he thinks (he is joining us in the shop a few minutes later).

She takes DP to the tights stand and says - I would like the grey tights with flowers. He looks at me and says to her - you know, they aren't my favourites, but if you really want them, I'll buy them for you.

DD gets grey tights with flowers.

At home, she tries them on. They actually look fabulous - she was right . She wears them to school and gets lots of compliments. Everyone is happy .

Thanks everyone for continuing this thread, it's really interesting!

Anna, sorry that's not negotiation, that's conversation I think most of us here would agree that children being encouraged to make choices about shopping is fantastic. I can't really imagine a good parent not doing (be it AP or non-AP parent, since we're sticking to those labels). It's a wholly different matter though teaching children about good vs. bad behaviour, e.g. if they're rude or aggressive, to try to show them that that's not acceptable behaviour. Surelly about something like that you can't negotiate. That's just called socialization, and is a necessary & important part of being a parent (and of family life). I'm not saying you beat them up or punish them, just teaching them gently & respectfully- but FIRMLY- what behaviour is acceptable & what is not, including bedtimes some times or other similar family structures. In my opinion it's completely wrong to deny that parents have & should have more power than children. Children & parents are not friends living together & making choices together, parents are there to lead & protect, children are there to grow & be nurtured. Having said that, I completely agree with you that some parents (I'm sure we've all seen them) were bullied as children & are looking to do that to their own children, & enforce rules without explaining them etc. Explaining rules & insisting on them though is NOT the same as bullying. It seems to me (and I've seen this happen with friends of mine) that some parents simply refuse to take on the role of parent, & act as if everyone in the family is the same, when in reality that's not the case, there IS a difference between children & parents.

Starlight: you say should the parents change their expectations or should society. Well that's surely a bit overgeneral. There are parents who expect NOTHING to change once they have children, hire live-in nannies immediately, go back to work in a week, enforce strict routines on their children from day 1, continue going to the gym every day, insist their social life remains the same etc etc. Obviously this is a caricature, and I'm sure none of us here is talking about those kinds of parents. If we were, I would say that yes, such parents would do well to change their expectations (not that they would ask me ). But that's not the same thing as Elffriend's story (for example)- parents who were fully prepared for parenthood- as much as one can be- and found themselves depressed, exhausted,demoralized etc. I think we should be trying to find ways to support such parents & understand their choices, & not just judge them. Also- choices such as co-sleeping (as a solution to sleepless nights) works well for some people, but for others it may be a completely wrong choice, feel unbearable etc, so not many other options are left open.

A question to everyone: Since more or less everyone on this thread is interested in CC- I mean, discussing it etc- perhaps we could all suggest alternative methods of helping a child learn to sleep? This would be useful either for those who don't want to do CC yet, or don't want to do it ever, or think other ways work better, or have high-needs children that would perhaps respond hysterically to CC etc. For example, Baby Whisperer's PU/PD always seemed to me a bit like CC in disguise. Am I wrong? I'm asking all these questions as an exhausted mother of a 4 month old who has dark circles under her eyes at this very moment, having not slept more than half-hour stretches all night

That is just picking your battles. You only negotiate on stuff that really doesn't matter, which seems obvious to me. That is definitely how I expect to parent my children when they are older.

Of course it is negotiation. I think you don't actually understand what negotiation is if you don't think so. The advantage of always negotiating on small things (like tights) is that when you get to the harder stuff, your children are used to you listening to their opinions, not criticising, and reaching a compromise based on all your opinions.

Maria2007 - on your four month old who won't sleep - children's biorhythms don't settle into any sort of pattern before about 16 weeks. Any "sleeping through" the night before that age is pure luck (unless you are the kind of parent who just shuts the door and lets a child scream itself to sleep).

Your baby will, if you just let take its own time, settle into some kind of sleep rhythm very soon. Be patient.

Interesting to say that someone doesn't understand what something means (in this case negotiation) just because they disagree with your definition of it. I think I understand very well what negotiation is, & I made an argument- which perhaps doesn't convince you- that negotiating & discussing small,everyday things is something surely all of us would be aiming to do! There are bigger structures in family life though that perhaps should be non-negotiable. At least that's how I see them. Example (and for me these would be important)- not being rude to people, showing kind behaviour, washing etc. I'm not saying I would BULLY my children into doing these things, I'm just saying I would make rules & stick to them. Surely I wouldn't negotiate with my children about whether they want to wash or not . And some people see bedtime in similar terms, so each family makes its own rules.

Anna: My boy is 17 weeks & waking every half hour or so (because of his dummy most times, it falls out & we replug it). Which is why we're co-sleeping out of necessity. I think I am patient, and am definitely not letting him scream- in fact I think with my particular baby it would be a disaster if we did that, he would put up a huge fight But what do you propose we do, on a practical level is this continues for months? I really don't have an answer, so I'm doing what you say, hoping for developmental changes which may leave to better sleep... Lets see.