Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

Pitchounette - that is interesting. I wonder how those good nurseries do that?

Here in Paris mothers I know complain rather a lot that the crèches are a bit quick to call them to pick babies up when they refuse to sleep at the times set by the crèches.

I'd love to know how they do it, too.

Peer pressure, ime .

Sorry, have skim read this thread, which I found one of the best thread about parenting I've ever seen on here. I don't think I have much to contribute to it, too many thoughts, too much confusion.

As for nursery, I know for a fact that my son (a terrible sleeper for the first three yrs of his life), was cuddled to sleep by his key worker. She put him in the cot and patted him/ rubbed his back. He then got used to it and went to sleep on his own (but alongside other toddlers).

Great post by Elffriend

My nursery did it with ds. A carer in the Babyroom would rock him to sleep and carried him throughout his nap (because he would wake if they tried to lower him into a cot). After a month, he would allow himself to be gently lowered onto a cushion in the main room and slept on that. Which he continued to do until he went to the Toddler Room and now he just lies down and sleeps on a cot (those narrow bunks) with a bit of shushing at the start if necessary. No Crying.

He will not do that at home - cue big big screams. So I don't try. It seems counterintuitive - but I don't know, it worked for dd and ds. I think some babies just don't expect the same things at nursery as they do at home. What they lose in cuddles from mummy, they make up for in a hustle bustle environment with lots of toys, activities and young friends and carers' arms to hold. It has really worked for my dcs.

true, franca. It is the group sleeping thing that convinced ds. He got good role models in other littly ones who were not as demanding sleep-wise as him.

I can see how the peer pressure works for a toddler, but remain a bit sceptical about whether it works for very little babies (> 12 months). Any experience of this?

I meant under 12 months

Anna8888, I started settling my dcs in nursery from 10-11 months. So don't know what is the situation with very much younger babies. Perhaps it is different in France, but it is quite unusual to see a baby below 6 months at my dcs' nursery. In fact, I know babies who started at 6 months who earned 'longest serving child' (joke) award when they graduated to pre-school. So even 6 months is fairly rare. And not all babies are tricky napwise like mine.

So so interesting about babies/toddlers sleeping better at nursery.

Totally speculative and unscientiic thought: does this explain why - in so-called 'native' cultures - babies seem not to have the same sleep problems as 'Western' babies? (If you believe the pseudo-anthropological hype - I'm a sucker - I do )? Generally held by their mothers (in slings or other such carriers) until perhaps left in the company of lots of other babies with communal care, etc? Ie. Are traditional cultures replicating nursery environments in some way?

And does this negate or modulate Gerhardt's (and others') assertions that one-to-one care in the first 3 years is the be-all-and-end-all of care for a child? Surely sleeping well (whatever that means for each individual child) is one of the most important indicators of (mental) health and also on the most important causes of good mental health in all ages?

OK - gotta go. Have irresponsibly left my DD playing on her mat with my mobile, probably imbibing all kinds of dangerous heavy metals.

Will check in again during her next nap!

I don't know, whiskey in their bottles ?

In my children's nursery they were cuddled, patted etc. Plus you have to allow that babies who self settle to sleep actually exist. (not my ds, though

Blueshoes how old are your dc?

I don't believe in the anthropological hype (instinctively, I can't support my stance scientifically ). I don't believe in one to one care either, I think in the Uk people are obsessed by toddlerhood, more than in the continent...

franca, ds is now 2.2 years (ft nursery) and dd 5.2 years (Reception/ft school)

Sorry Pent, that wasn't very helpful (mn is turning me into an over opinionated cow)

oh, he is tiny

Here crèche begins at 2 months ie just before the end of maternity leave.

If you are a French mother who knows that she will be returning to work 10 weeks after giving birth and sees a French paediatrician, you will as a matter of course be preparing your baby for "crèche routine" from birth.

Other mothers, who are either not French or wish to send their babies to crèche a bit later on (eg because they want to breastfeed) get "caught out" because their babies' sleep patterns haven't been imposed since birth.

Anna, I guess you are better placed to find out the answer amongst your French acquaintances then.

For your friends who want to send their non-routinised older babies to nursery, well my experience with 10+ monther is there is a chance that peer pressure and gentle cuddling will eventually get them into the nursery routine without crying. I don't believe in setting routines from birth. Very much into rods for my back.

I remember that when I visited ds nursery (he started at 14, maybe 15 months) I asked many questions about nap time, worried that his weird habits would have shattered the serene routines of the nursery, but the workers seemed really unconcerned.
There weren't babies under 6 months at my dc's nursery as well, so I don't know how they do. But as i said, they are usually happy to cuddle, or even put them in prams and rock them.

Do they sleep better at nursery because of the stricter routine in terms of eating as well?

and because the nursery staff have a much bigger vested interest - not in a bad way - just they expect and want it to work much more. they see that it has worked with the vast majority of their children and therefore apply the law of averages.

Lol blueshoes. I didn't even know there were routines when my first came along...

No, not at all Franca. Actually, reviewing my post: it was rattled off too quickly, and contains lots of unhelpful and crass implications: e.g. about sleep and mental health, etc.

Apologies if I offended or upset anyone inadvertently.

And yes, I did mean it sort of tongue-in-cheek. I think most of those anthropological studies are a bit dubious, if not attractive to a sop like me.

And you are probably right about toddlerhood and the UK. That Gerhardt book makes me want to weep with anxiety!

Again, I don't know about the babies, but certainly toddlers learn fast what their routine is like at nursery: breakfast/activity/snack/free play/lunch/story/nap/ etcetc (and nappy changing-handwashing blablabla)

giantsacks, I think the nursery staff just don't want to see babies cry. So they don't have the reservations about too-much-too-little cuddling. They just do what it takes to keep babies on an even keel. I don't think they have a vested interest in routine, at least in the babyroom, because it is quite flexible in my dcs' nursery.

From sitting in the babyroom during my ds' 8-week settling in period, most of the staff's time is engaged in settling in the new babies. Once babies are settled in, say around 2-3 months, they just get on with it. I do think peer pressure and just the distractions of a nursery (especially if your child has the right personality for a nursery) play a factor. My dcs just forgot to fuss. Unbelievable.

Pente . I don't think you offended anyone, certainly not me, as I def need sleep. Lots of. Actually me and dh were a bit shocked by having produced a son who needed so little rest (we went on having a dd whose sleeping habits were more in line with the family tradition)...

blueshoes - the point was that the crèches don't do the sleep training themselves, but call the parents to take the children home when they won't sleep.