Any child psychologists out there? What do you think (professionally) about controlled crying?

[Neenztwinz]

I have used CC, I think it is a very quick and effective way of dealing with sleep problems, but I was wondering if there was any research done into its long-term effects. My SIL is a child psychologist and she is dead against CC, so I wonder whether it is because of research she may have seen. I don't want to ask her about it because our babies are only 7 weeks different in age and discussions such as these are just not worth the hassle IYKWIM.

maria, don't I understand about babies who don't accept change easily. Do read this link about high needs babies, or perhaps you already have: here

You asked "And you know, there ARE babies who respond to CC by actually INCREASING their cries for quite a few days, & it takes ages for it to work. So it really depends on the baby, and it's not as if all babies stop crying & start sleeping within 3 days of CC."

Agree. And I hear from friends and relatives that lots of CC-ed babies need to be re-trained after illness, disruption in routine, teething etc. I have no appetite for this. I am not saying I am a better parent than one who CCs. I would readily admit to taking the easy way out IMO by co-sleeping.

giantsanta, I use the word 'break them' or 'break their will' only in relation to my dcs. Because with their strong personalities, that is what it would come down to. I would go for CC in a shot if it could be done in 1-2 hours over 3 days. That is not breaking anybody's will at all. My dcs regularly cried as babies for whatever reason during the day and night for that period anyway!

Thanks all for the messages. Your support does mean a lot.

It did become a bit of an epic post didn't it?

I do think those first few weeks/months can be harder than people anticipate in terms of sleeping and feeding etc. - even when there aren't medical problems. I also think that the scale of PND is glossed over. We are definitely presented with a rosy image which can be very unhelpful.

All that love at first sight and "tired but happy" stuff. If you don't fell like that it can feeli like a crushing failure. Perhaps this is why people turn to books to tell them the "right" answer.

Yes, it gets better but often only because you take active steps to make it better (as well them just getting older!).

Sheesh. Who'd be a mother?

And that's before you get onto the SAHM/WOHM guilt trip over which choice you will be beaten up all over again!!

I posted early in this thread (with the one bit of 'knowledge' that I have about all this, which was that given that it is unethical to test on babies we'll never know the answer to the OP's post in any complete sense; and that the only unregulated 'experiments' - those on the Romanian orphans left to cry - don't show anything for discussions of CC because they were left for prolonged periods). Unfortunately, someone later had a go at me, having misunderstood my post, so I was scared off for a bit...

Anyway, just skimmed through this thread as best I can. Very interesting. Thanks all for the debate!

I don't for a moment think that people who use CC are somehow bad parents. As I said in my original post, sometimes there must be no tolerable alternative. People have to live, and if that's the way to get on, then they have to do it.

I'm 'lucky' in that - at the moment (and I stress that) - I don't have to use CC. Not because my baby goes off to sleep on her own. Far from it...

My DD is a really cheerful little soul, and rarely cries. In fact, those plaintive little sounds that she does make (rarely actual crying - that seems to be reserved for the dreaded carseat!) are almost always when she's tired. So, the one negative noise my DD makes indicates her tiredness.

But but but. If I try to lie her down, shushing etc. for a nap, she will not go off to sleep. Just won't. She moans and whines and wriggles violently until she begins to work herself into a state, and I pick her up to prevent tears. So, I pop her in a wrap and gently sway her to sleep. Then, if I'm lucky, I can gently get her out and lay her down. But, most times - at the moment - this doesn't work. She wakes up, so I have to put her in the sling and get her back to sleep again. And in the sling/wrap she stays. She's there right now.

Now, obviously, while I'm on maternity leave (one year) and don't really have anything better to do (she's my only), this is ok. I'm happy to let her sleep on me during the day, if this is the way to get her napping and fully rested.

At night times I usually wrap her to sleep again, then gently extract her and lie down next to her: sometimes she latches on for a quick feed, sometimes not.

And there I stay. From 7.30. Thank god for my laptop and the internet. Because if I try to slip away, she wakes up. Not crying: just awake, alert and wanting to play.

Now, my DH and I have agreed that: she needs her sleep, and - at the moment - we can't bear to hear her cry, so we'll do whatever we know what to do to get her to sleep without it.

We miss each other in the evenings, it's true (though he's working most evenings, so I wouldn't see much of him anyway, I guess), but we have a peaceful house.

However, what happens in the future? I don't know. Maybe she'll develop the ability to go to sleep on her own.

But if she doesn't?

Sorry - long post. But I wanted to offer my experience: on paper I look like someone doing Attached Parenting, I suppose. But it's mostly by accident, and only because at the moment it's working for us...

Are any methods with children for anything - time out/cc/getting picky toddlers to eat etc much less likely to succeed if the caregiver doesnt believe that they will work in the first place?

No idea - just asking...

Blueshoes - It's not just your babies. It would have been 'breaking the will' of some of mine,too.
I get very upset sometimes at the thought of what we put our eldest through because of the advice of relatives,friends and hp that he would 'just have to learn'.
And yes I do think it affected him.

juule - as his mummy, because you know your baby best, how do you think it affected him?

maria: "blueshoes- except that I don't think CC necessarily 'extinguishes' their personality!" I presume you take issue with the word 'extinguishing' because it is term of art in the world of psychology, of which I have very little knowledge.

If you compare authoritarian v. attachment parenting in their crudest terms and carry CC into all other aspects of parenting throughout a child's life, yes, you can beat a child down. Not 'extinguish' their personality, if you prefer, but do real emotional damage to a strongwilled child. I was a strongwilled child (god knows where my dcs got that from), I cannot imagine what would have been the result if my parents decided to be authoritarian with me.

I suppose trying to impose sleep times on him was just part of it. It was probably the whole you are the child, I am the parent and you will do as you are told. As someone else has said there are a lot of variables to parenting. But I think that having the stance where the parent is imposing there will without consideration for the distress it might be causing the child could carry through into a whole range of situations.

I feel uneasy posting personal details about my eldest on here so you might just have to take my word for it.

The younger children who we have been much more relaxed with seem to be more their own person at similar ages.

Ok - sorry - didn't mean to pry.

Pitchounette: Sorry you went through PND too. I think I am pretty much through it now but it did take a very long time. DS is now 2.4. I think it took a good eighteen months though - if not longer. You reach the stage when you are going through the motions of life again and don't cry all the time so it is written off as gone. Looking back - it wasn't. I became very attached to my (and his) routine as it became a a control mechanism and I never dared deviate, so life was very restrictive. Still is a bit. It made going back to work very hard.

I do think counselling might have helped. I had a little bit (with the lady who helped with the sleep training -she also worked with PND sufferers) and some of the roots of it I knew already(mother, childhood, past issues etc.)

For a long time I did worry whether my PND might have damaged DS (far more than I worried about bloody CC!)but I through that. (I think!)

I still have bad times and I still wonder sometimes if I did the right thing to have DS but they are no longer fierce and I can look foward now - which I never could before.

How long did it take you to come through it?

penthesileia - the trouble comes when our life changes though doesnt it - what will you do out of interest if your dc is still the same when you go back to work? will he be in nursery - where they will presumably put them all down for a nap at the same time?

its so difficult to know when to intervene if you are going to try and tweak them - the older they are then the longer it takes but equally I dont think anything is appropriate before 6 months. (and am aware that this may seem like a random number to many but its my random number)

No problem Pentheseleia, sorry not to be more helpful.

Exactly, giantsantasacks - I don't know... I'm hoping that she will become more able to settle herself to sleep. I've heard anecdotal evidence from other mums that their babies (regardless of the techniques they used) seemed to reach this 'milestone' between 10 and 14 months. Now, although my maternity leave runs out next May, I won't actually have to return to strict office hours til next September (I have the luxury of working from home, if necessary, thank the lord), so my DD will be 15 months by then. We're still debating whether to put her in nursery or go for a nanny: obviously a nanny, if necessary, could mimic my patterns with her.

But, I'm hoping that we'll see a change in her sleeping (which - I should stress - we've been lucky with. Although she doesn't fall off to sleep on her own, once she's asleep in the sling or by me in bed, she sleeps very well, and rarely wakes, even in the night [unless, as I said, I try to creep away...]: mixed blessings). But if we don't, I'm not sure how we'll tackle this problem. That's why I'm following this thread with such interest!

penthesileia, speaking from experience, I would suggest that when you are ready to go back to work, just give it a go at settling your dcs with their nursery, CM, nanny etc. I found with both my dcs, they would do things are nursery they would not do with me at home.

I put both my dcs in ft nursery at about 1 year old. When they started, neither would nap unless continuously held by me in my arms (not even in a sling) or rocked continuously in a buggy to music - they would wake if the movement or sound stopped. The nursery was lovely (and check with ahead what your carer is prepared to do) but they rocked ds/dd in arms/buggy for their hourlong naps for about a month. Eventually, with no crying at all, they slept just like all their friends would at nursery. Now at 2.2 years, ds still does not do that for me at home but he will do that at nursery. Same with eating - both dcs would eat so well as nursery/school but never eat the same food at home. I think it is the peer pressure - even a young baby can sense that and get with the programme.

And if it does not work, you can always extend your maternity leave.

This thread is so good... I wish I had the time to properly read it (but I have two babies to look after ). I am following it tho even if I have to skim some posts.

Re AP meaning negotiations between child and parent... I totally agree with this! But only for teenagers not for young children. IMO young children need/want to be told what to do, it gives them boundaries and teaches them how to fit in with the world. However, with teens I think it is so important to give them the freedom (even if it is only perceived and actually isn't freedom at all) to make their own decisions. My mum did this with me when I was a teen (after my older sister went completely off the rails under authoritarion parenting!) and it was great. I was much more well-behaved than a lot of my peers! And it taught me a lot about life.

About sleep training and different personalities... my DTs are very different personalities but the fact that I have got them both sleeping so well makes me think you can get any baby to sleep well. But what a rubbish study - of two! So don't flame me, I know it is a ridiculous thing to say, but it is what I think! I can't wait to have more babies to increase my study group

That's interesting (and good) to hear, blueshoes. Thanks. I feel lucky, though, that I have the luxury of being able to wait and see.

Negotiating with your baby/toddler doesn't mean your child doesn't have boundaries - it just means that they are boundaries that you have agreed between you, rather than rules that a parent has imposed upon a child.

There are three children in this family: DSS1 (13), DSS2 (11) and DD (4). We use the same negotation tactics with all of them. They don't behave in exactly the same way, because they have different personalities and are at different stages of maturity. However, the way we handle, together, the issues they face is pretty much identical.

You are right, Neenz, in that a person's experiences colour their view.

With our first we struggled as he was a dreadful sleeper but I also think we had unrealistic expectations.

Then with dc2 he had to wait as dc1 was still demanding. Usually by the time I got around to him (not very long) he'd quietened down again. (cc by default maybe?)
So at this point I'd decided that we obviously didn't know what we were doing with dc1 and had cracked this parenting lark with dc2.

Then we had dc3. Who shrieked. Didn't cry as such. Shrieked and never gave up.

At that point I realised that it was probably more about personalities.

Agree Anna8888.

Maria - thank you for your posts. (And everyone else, this is a great thread)

Anna - I do think you should apologise for your "yawn" at Maria. IMO, she was not rude to you, just challenged you politely. And you haven't answered her point.

(Though you may ignore me as I am a "latecomer" - where on earth did that "rule" come from?)

I think she should apologise to me - I very politely pointed out to her that she had misread/quoted out of context and then criticised her misinterpretation. And she was really quite dismissive in her reply...

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neenz

I too used to think you could train any baby to sleep well after unscientific study of dd1

With dd2, now 18 months, I found this was not the case! I did sleep train her and she sleeps through the night but she is not a good napper - never done the magic two hour stint and she wakes very early in the morning and cc then didn't work. All the hardcore sleep gurus ie Weissbluth and Ferber concede that if your child's an early riser and they've done 10/11 hours or so then they don't need any more sleep and that's tough. And for those who say why don't you put her down later, she is shattered by 7pm and needs to go to sleep then as is her older sister, and I can't start giving them different bedtimes - far too inflammatory. But without sleep training she definitely would have been one of those babies who woke four or five times a night, which I simply couldn't have coped with, so things could have been a lot, lot worse.

So my conclusion would be you can achieve a fair bit with cc but not miracles.

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