Ok. A thought from my other thread. Which would you prefer. An opinionated child who knows their own mind and questions everything or one that accepts everything they are told without question?

[AvenaLife]

I'd like to know how children that question everything are viewed please. ds is like this, I'm trying to stop this but after my last thread I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing. Is it such a problem or am I making it a problem?

TIA

There used to be a know it all in ds's class. He was bright and liked to tell everyone about it, he'd even try and correct me with a spelling on one occasion in front of the teacher and other parents (he got it wrong though and went off in a strop). I found this really rude and annoying. I'm pleased ds isn't like this, he just needs reasons for things, he also lets me go on MN without wanting attention. I would like him more sedate when we are out though.

This is a bit of a Pandora's box... but my mother reckons there's a class divide on this one. That, in general, working class kids are brought up to do what their parents tell them and middle class kids are brought up to question (dunno about upper class, presumably brought up to expect everyone else to jump when they say so).

Not sure if it holds true these days, but she remembers our (much-loved) childminder being astonished at the way mother let us question her decisions. (Am NOT saying childminding = working class, but it was true in our case.)

Her theory was that working class kids, in those days, were destined for jobs in factories where they had to do what they were told and middle class kids were destined for jobs where asking questions was a good thing, such as the law.

And I went round a museum of social history recently that made the point that in ye olden days, even the farm labourer expected to be master in his own home - the upper classes could order him around all they liked in public but in his own home, he expected his wife and children to do what they were told.

(Mind you, my mother also tells me I'm making a rod for my own back by allowing ds to question my decisions, so there you go.)

Hmm. Interesting edam. I did a bit of philosophy at Uni, the lecturer went into this a bit, how all state schools wanted children that did as they were told and made to feel as if they would never aspire to anything or would never excel.

God help us if ds ever becomes a judge/politician. I'll emigrate.

I think your lecturer was a tad biased, tbh. Every single teacher and school in the whole state system?

I used to get told off by my HV for explaining sdtuff to ds1 when he was 2 or 3. She said I should just 'say' and and should just accept...but he always questioned everything. Once the whys and wherefores had been explained, he would usually comply. And he is, very well-mannerered.
He is a natural-born anarchist and I wish he would conform sometimes, just to make his life easier...

I used to work - voluntarily - with a group of children. One of them, a boy, would constantly fidget and ask questions all the time, make loud remarks, etc. It made it very difficult for the other children to enjoy their time at the activities or to make themselves heard - prob not v good for their self esteem.

It also made it very difficult to explain safety aspects which were very important to the nature of some things we were doing. E.g. It simply wasn't appropriate, at that time to explain why things had to be done in a certain way. The vast majority of the children needed to know that the rules were A, B, C and D and at 5/6yo couldn't take on more than the basics.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't take the time, if any child still wanted to know later (and if the other children were safe) to explain or, more likely if they were very bright, ask the questioning child to work out why these rules might be needed.

I agree with what many have said that I like a child who is interested, is sparky but also realises that others need to have their turn in order to help them grow too because they have their own special talents and every child deserves a chance.

Being working class, I agree. I honestly believe the level of education W/C children receive is to make them useful to employers, and the overwhelming desire of the establishment is to get these children into school on time. They want punctuality more than anything (so in future years, the factory can start work on time).

I was absolutely squashed as a child. Would never say or do anything out of line, because I knew I'd get a clout.

My children have always been allowed to give me their point of view, because I'm aware that I'm not always right, and I haven't always got the full story. If I'm wrong, I sort things out from there. If the kids are just bullsh*tting me, my word goes. I think that's fair and just. They are children, not insignificant entities whose thoughts and feelings don't count.

I think he was aswell edam. He's alwaysgiven me the impression that he's anti establishment and anti too many rules. He's a public law lawyer aswell so it says it all really.
Filthy, I think there are moments when they should conform and moments when they shouldn't have to. Conform when out with mum, when at school as not to disrupt the class. Free to think and ask questions (within reason) at home and at school when appropriate. Do you think this is a fair compromise?

Hi Sue, are you enjoying the holiday? ds used to have a child in his class that used to shout out all the time (4-5 times a day)and demand attention from the teacher, admittidly ds used to do this a few years ago but has stopped this. We bumped into a child who will be in his class in his new school, he was verging on obnoxious with an inablilty to hold his tongue. I normally don't mind but he was rude (and here's me complaining about ds!)

As a teacher I like children who ask questions but the ones who keep arguing even when they are wrong can be a nightmare in a classroom. Everyone needs to know when it is appropriate to question and when it isn't, let's face it in life there isn't always time to give a detailed reason for asking someone to do something.

Working class children being educated to comply to work in factories there arn't many left.

In the past maybe, I'm thinking the secondary moderns but please things have moved on a bit since then.

I have never tried to control my child with fear of severe punishment if a line was stepped over and hate to see children parented this way.

It is a fact that in the past the curriculum was designed to meet societies needs but needs are changing and the curriculum is slowly changing because we need people who can think for themselves and be leaders rather than followers.

constance: I have discussions with ds about what it's like to be a child and how they are expected to learn of adults. I think he's had some bad experiences with teachers/carers and he doesn't feel as if children are respected or listens to. He's been told off for such silly little things and he's seen others that are not told off for the same/worse it's almost as if he doesn't trust anything anyone tells him, which is why he has to discuss everything and have reasons. I think this is what the problem is, I'm struggling to find a way to help him overcome this. He's seen for himself that adults are not always right and he's so bright that he picked this up very early on.

There's a line though, what is and is not appropriate. ds knows that he should never correct the teacher or another child/parent/adult. He gets this. He is able to listen to both sides of a debate and will back down if he is wrong. I've seen other children unable to do this and it is sad to watch.

Would take either, but ask for some consistency, please. My DD1 is a compliant litle angel child in public and for everyone except me, when she is a stroppy terror TBH. Of course, if I ever complain about her, my friends think I'm loopy tune.

I think he should improve once we've tackled the trust issue. He doesn't trust what people say, I think this is very bad (not him, his trust problem). His new school should have consistent rules that apply to everyone so this should help him (keeping fingers crossed). His old head did say that he would prefer it if ds was a little shit at home and really quiet at school . I think he was part of the problem.

No there aren't many factories, but society will always need a working class to do the boring stuff, so we are taught unquestioning compliance and little else. Those who rebel or question spend much time in the inclusion room. I do believe it is true. We do not receive the same education as private schools. If we did, everyone would be happy to send their children to a state school.

Avenalife - that is exactly what I've always tried to achieve with my children. 'Never be afraid to state your case, but if it's wrong never be afraid to back down'.

Constance, do they get into trouble at school for this?

ConstanceWearing it seems as if you have had very poor experiences with schools which I wouldn't say is true for most schools. IME private schools are often less inclined to accept "questioning" but I am willing to accept this isn't true of all.

Thanks. I am anxious, I've seen how upset he's become at his old school, part of me knows he'll be fine but it's the nagging doubts. I just want him to fit in. He doesn't have alot of friends from his old school as they all live too far away or spend their holidays abroad. He plays with the boy next door when he's around. He has loads of lego and hoggs the laptop. I'm not offended.

Thankyou.

Plenty of children are receiving a good enough education in state schools to get them into university along with their private school peers. Thankfully.

Often its not about a better education but about status for the parents that poeple opt out of state education. Anyway this is going off subject.

I agree with Riven don't fret too much about your DS. I can remember my DD hated doing citizenship lessons and couldn't understand why she had to sit a listen to such drivel when it was common sense. You just have to explain to your children that in school they have to comply to a certain extent even if they don't agree with it.

I don't think the education system works for every child. They are all different and should be allowed to attend the school that is right for them. I know when I was at school (comprehensive), the class was mixed into those that did want to learn and those that didn't. 9/10 times nothing could be taught because those that didn't took all the attention of the teacher and they had to spend more time dealing with these children than anything else. I have expections of ds to be quiet in lessons and not to mess around at school because I've been on the other side and it destroyed my education. These children were probably little angels at home. On mass, children tend to follow each other anyway. We spend so much time teaching them to be respectful and compliant but doesn't this all go out of the window once they reach puberty?