What do you do when your 5 year old point blank says "NO" and refuses

[ALMummy]

to tidy his room, go in the bath, go to bed, come to the dinner table etc.

I am at my wits end. There have been constant tantrums over the past week and anything I ask him to do is met with a point blank refusal followed by a screaming tantrum. I think he is beginning to realise that I cant actually MAKE him do anything. What are your tips for getting your DC to co-operate.

Tidying up - I'd ask a couple of times and if he wouldn't then I'd ask did he want me to help him. This usually gets co-operation but not always. Lots of times I'd do it myself and then make a fuss about how nice it was with everything tidied away, how we could do something now it was tidy but we could have had longer if he'd helped and we could have done it quicker. Or I might just not say anything.

Eating dinner - I wouldn't force the issue. I'd ask if he wasn't hungry, didn't like what he had. I tend to not put the dinner things away for a while for the little ones to give them time to come round to it themselves.

Bath - if he really didn't want one I'd probably say we would put it off until tomorrow as long as he promised he'd have one tomorrow. Might throw in a couple of stories of diseases and scabs if people get too dirty

Bed - At five, I've let them fall asleep downstairs. They have to be quiet and look like they are going to sleep or they have to go to bed. They are usually asleep pretty quickly, though not always. They do grow out of this phase and I'm more insistent as they get older.

I also remind them when I'm helping them and point out how it's better and nicer if we all work together.

All of the above can go out of the window if I'm tired and then I get a bit shouty with the older children. I don't think this is wrong because I think it's right that children understand that give and take means they have to give a bit sometimes, too.

ALMummy I think you are asking great questions.

"I dont want my DS to be coerced into anything and one of my big fears is of making him feel trapped by inflexible parenting but there are some things that just need doing - bathing, eating and sleeping."

Pull those two things apart. One is not wanting to coerce (I agree wholeheartedly) two is these-things-must-be-done. Thing is, as people have said upthread, no two parents ever agree on what the things are that must-be-done. So either all the other parents are wrong and I am right about which things I think must-be-done, or I'm wrong and one of them is right (but not all), or else, actually, these things which must-be-done might not necessarily have to be done, since some families get by perfectly happily without doing them.

I'm rambling. It's expressed beautifully
here

S'alright, Franny, I think we do disagree sometimes anyway and I didn't want to come across as if I were speaking for you...
AL's mummy- I a m sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to at all. Of course you know your son and I don't and therefore I am sure you are right about him biding time.
I suppose what I meant, however clumsily, to say was that you can feel that the way to deal with this is to get angrier and stricter whereas if you change the way you deal with it you can change his reactions.
I believe many children of this age are experimenting with what it means to be a big boy as they are told they are so often and so resist the things they feel you dictate iyswim
I just believe that gentle explanation and choices work better sometimes
Sorry again if I offended you, it was unintentional

Hmm tips.

Obviously choose your battles, what is really important, and is it important? If it's not really that big a deal then it's better to just leave it.

Choose your consequences suitably, the 'punishment' must fit the 'crime', like the toys don't get picked up by the child, they get picked up by mummy but put elsewhere, be it bin or a 'removed toys box'.

Always think about why they are acting the way they are, e.g DP got annoyed with DS the otehr day for bugging him about something, the reason behind it was DS is 3, time to him is a totally different concept, so Daddy saying give me five minutes, that's fine, but two minutes later he will ask again because he has no concept, so try to take away that issue, use a timer if it's a time issue.

Another why question, Is it the time of day, eg if I put the DC's in the bath when their fave tv programme was in I'd be less lkely to get co-operation, can you reschedule things so they suit them?

Speak to them calm, collected and neutral when asking to do something, then if you need to use your 'not impressed mummy voice' you can use it as a sign that things arent going well and it neednt descend into shouting or arguing.

Give reasons and respect. 'Don't speak to mummy like that, it's rude, I wouldn't talk to you like that, if you want to talk we'll talk, but talk nicely' works wonders on my two, also, if they tantrum/cry/yell etc, ignore it, tell them you cant talk to them in that state and when they have calmed down you will be happy to discuss the issue, then walk away.

I'm sure there are tons more, and I bet I've x-posted loads but they are my tips that I try to live by.

Great post, VS

Beckyvicky said something really good ages ago.. have missed out the argument... these are really good questions..

Anyway something I've found that works with children from 4 up is the timer which BV said but in a slightly different way.

Most jobs they need to do only take a short time. I put the stopwatch on my phone and say Ok let's see if we can/you can do this before the buzzer goes (usually not more than 10 mins -- so maybe half a tidy room at a time).

If it's a v stressy situation it's "less" (!) fun but the stopwatch often still works. Something about that bell ringing -- they think about it so much they forget that they're doing a chore. And it's a choice for them.

Then it's time's up you had the choice. You chose early bedtime. And do it.

It doesn't always work but then not much does really. I've got it wrong so many times and am no expert but this is one thing I have found very successful.

I am actually really happy that I posted because a lot of your responses have taken me back to how I used to be with DS before the shouting started. If I hadnt posted I might not have remembered what a completely fab kid he is and always was when I was working a bit harder at getting to the same place without shouting. I know for a fact that one of the tantrums about baths this week was because time had got away from us and I asked him to go in the bath during one of his favourite programmes, he screamed "No" immediately, DH intervened and a massive row ensued and I know that it wouldnt have happened if I had given a warning . Then things escalate and suddenly he is just a "naughty" kid, which he really isnt. FWIW I have been super patient and given time warnings tonight and no rows just a bit of moaning, which I didnt react to.

I thought that Franny would be reading the holding door stuff with distaste (and I do hate to disagree with Franny).

I really don't like doing it, and I'd like to find a different way forwards.

DS1 (5) is a very emotional child, and at times he reaches such a pitch of hysteria that he simply cannot be reasoned with. He did this today, and I spent a good half-hour sitting on the sofa with him, giving him a hug and trying to explain why he couldn't have what he wanted (in this case, unlimited time on the Sega Megadrive that stupidhead DP bought him ) - but if anything it only seemed to wind him up more. Then he started throwing toys around, and wouldn't stop, at which point I put him in his room until he had calmed down (about ten minutes).

Furthermore, I wonder whether these things have to take account of the parent's temperament as well as the child's? Anyone remember that 'red mist' thread? If you're the kind of person who sometimes feels that they are approaching breaking point with their child, then I do think that the relegation-to-the-bedroom tactic is preferable to uncontrolled screaming (or smacking, although that's not something I've done). In this case, the child gets relegated rather than the parent, because the parent is less likely to cause irreperable damage to fixtures and fittings while left on her own.

But as I say, I'm not comfortable with the door-holding; it does feel like might-is-right. It's just that sometimes I don't have any other shots in my locker.

Bedtime always went well by using a CD every night, gentle music for us (a freebie from the front of a parenting magazine if I remember)the same one every night. If you can persuade ds that it's his special music he might enjoy lying there drifting away.
(dd aged 12 is reading this over my shoulder and laughing and saying she still uses it now - it's lasted well hasn't it)
I've also always told her she's a really good sleeper and she believes me.
You may need to do some tidying up yourself - I just don't think they always get that notion themselves until they are about 23
Though going along with the idea of only having 1 toy out at once works for some. Then at least there's less to put away.

well i started the door-holding so think i should retort.
DD1 is 4.2 and i have done this on about 3 occasions, that is 3/1500 nights, so hardly regular but sometimes, needs must! I'm not prepared to sit outside her door all night telling her "back to bed" - we did 9 nights of this when she first moved into a bed (well actually about a week after, once she realised that she could get out). We got fed up, one night just tied the door handle to the bannister so she could open the door but not get out. She shouted and stomped for about 10 minutes, then got into bed and fell asleep.

Anyway, this evening i made a roast dinner for all of us. DD1 would not sit at the table, well she came over, grabbed a parsnip, shoved it in her mouth and walked off. I tried negotiating, cajoling, bribing etc. She said she wasn't hungry. Fine, i said - sit at the table or it's time for bed. She wouldn't sit at the table so she got put to bed. No dinner. 5 minutes later she was asleep. Now is that bad parenting? I don't know. I often get told by my parents to "stop negotiating with a 4 year old" so i promise you i am not a heavy-handed, "do as i say" mum, but sometimes you can negotiate too much. Quite often i do think she thinks she is the most important person in the house.

anyway am rambling, ranting... What would you have done at dinner this evening? Onwardupward, no way am i moving the whole family to sit on the floor. It is important we sit at the table as a family for sunday roast. I would never force her to eat, but i do think she is old enough to be able to sit nicely at the table for at least long enough to eat her meal.

oh and i did let them have their lunch in the wendy house earlier, because they wanted to, and i couldn't see the harm in it.

(desperately justifying that i am not mean)

I would expect a four year old to sit at the table too tbh, my three year old has t sit with us every meal time, he always has since he was big enough to sit in his high chair.

If he was to get down he would be warned his dinner would go in the bin, and we would have pudding without him even if it wasn't planned, if he refused to do as he was told then I would follow through and he would then realise he missed out.

We had the in-laws over the other week and he tried telling me he wasn't eating dinner and he got asked dinner or bed and chose dinner.

amidaiwish, I agree with you. You will probably get the question "why is it important that you all sit as a family for Sunday Dinner?" and what is the answer to that? Why is it important to me that my DS baths every other night, eats his dinner and goes to bed when I ask Oh and occasionally lends a hand tidying up the ocean of toys that are pulled out each day? I dont want my kids to do things just "because I say so" but I do want them to end up being considerate and well balanced adults and I dont see how that can be achieved if you just do let them do whatever they want, whenever they want. I have had some great advice on here though about getting things done without it resorting to all out warfare and also some reminders and tips for things that I did actually used to do but somehow just got lost along the way.

ALMummy, if I was asked 'why is it important to eat sunday dinner together' my answer would be that for me it's good manners to sit at the table whilst dinner is served, it is also one of the most important times in our home for family time, we all talk and interact and it's a large part of our life so I expect DS and Dd to take part in it.

I won't force them to eat whilst sat there, more often than not if they say they dont want dinner and I say 'fine, you dont have to eat, just sit with us please' they'll pick at something anyway.

But that is what I meant by choosing what is important to you, if dinnertime isn't but something else is then that's your choice. You don't need to justify why it is important to you, just recognise which tasks are important, and decide if you can change that or if you want to keep it that way.

If my 6yo won't do something, then I say "Fine, next time you want me to do something I won't" And then give an example, like, the next time you want a friend over, the next time you want the tv on.
Then I tell her its HER choice.

So far seems to work

I do agree with policywonk here:

Furthermore, I wonder whether these things have to take account of the parent's
temperament as well as the child's? Anyone remember that 'red mist' thread? If you're
the kind of person who sometimes feels that they are approaching breaking point
with their child, then I do think that the relegation-to-the-bedroom tactic is
preferable to uncontrolled screaming

I agree actually - when I have sent to room (once or twice a year?) it has been because I am THIS CLOSE >< to losing my temper. I'd rather calmly place them in their room than lose the plot

Stuff like sitting at table is non-negotatiable for me. We go out to eat regularly and there is no way I could do that enjoyably if they didn't understand basic table manners and sitting together for meals. I don't know why anyone would compromise with that TBH. I don't want to be stuck in my house forever with children who don't know how to behave properly when they are eating out.

aw am skimming thread now as is late but was sorry to read the 'distaste' bit
I am sorry if I sounded sneery and distasteful, wonky
and I defend your right to make tough decisions at times when you feel serious discipline is needed - but it seemed like the general tenor of the thread was becoming "well when they are being disobedient, you need to lock them in their rooms"

it really did seem that way, as a kind of blanket advice, if you read all the posts cumulatively

like MP I agree taking steps to avoid losing the plot is preferable and v good thing to do
but I felt these kind of last straw tactics were being advised as a default - perhaps I was reading it wrong

will try to come back and read more carefully in the morning but just wanted to say that straight away

not had time to read all thread sorry but this is age most children react based on other childrens reactions at school etc found with my dd1 age 6 that we compromised on some things eg sittin at table non negotiable etc but also spoke about some things she could have control over eg bath or shower she knows consequences for not sticking to basic agreement eg sittin at table means 10 mins in her bedroom which start when she gets there and restarts if she comes out but definitely found allowing her choices in some things made life easier and tantrums stopped quite quickly

Ah no Franster you didn't sound sneery at all. I see what you mean about shutting kids in their rooms becoming the default position.

I admire the Alfie Kohn approach, I'm just not sure that either I or DS1 has the temperament for it.

I'm not sure who Alfie Kohn is

But I don't understand the idea behind letting kids stay up until whenever they like.
Sleep is a basic physiological need, it is vital to growth and mental well being.

The fact of our society is that things run to a timetable. Fine, maybe its no big deal to be late for nursery/school, whatever, but I know dd (6) HATES being late. I don't. Also if they are tired at school, and as a consequence don't understand their work, that is a bit of a big deal to some kids. I have accepted that I walk around life in a daze, but DD really gets upset if she doesn't understand.

I agree that you should try to make things interesting and fun for them - i suspect I am too strict.

So if someone can explain the no bedtime thing...

I'm off to look up this Kohn fella

letting a child run around until he/she decides they wish to go to bed would have resulted in me staying up until 2 am every night from birth. I am an owl. I need to be SENT to bed. I only feel tired between 2 am and 11 am.

But to go to school you need to get up at 7. YOu cannot make a 5 year old go to school on 5 hours sleep, it's borderline neglectful to allow that situation to continue unchecked.

I am not my son's friend, he has friends at school, I am his adoring mother and guardian of his well being, therefore he goes to bed at half past seven, like it or lump it.

Actually my kids would be fine with 'no bedtime' they both demanded bed (and got bed) at 6.20 on friday. Oddballs.

Franny, "it seemed like the general tenor of the thread was becoming "well when they are being disobedient, you need to lock them in their rooms""
I've just come across this thread and have read from the beginning and that's exactly what I was thinking until you and onwardandupward posted. I am sure the locking in the room is a rare occurence in the houses of those who suggested it, but no one said so at first.

Someone said 'we're not talking about 3yr olds here, the op's DS is 5, that's old enough not to always have to reason or negotiate with'
I would say the opposite (and I've got one DC of each age at the moment) when DS says 'NO' he usually has a valid reason (valid to him) for not doing what I want, rather than just not doing it for the sake of saying no. I have started asking 'why' straight away to see whether both his and my wishes can be accomodated. Eg Quite often he doesn't want to tidy his room because he has spent a big part of the day building a big trainset and wants to play some more with it. So he has to tidy away any unconstructive mess. Once a week everything goes away so we can vacuum.

We haven't had bedtime struggles since he was 3 so I don't have anything to contribute but he is usually quite motivated to go to bed because we read a chapter a night book. Dithers terribly when it comes to getting pjs on and brushing teeth so I now say '10 minutes to story time' 'five minutes to story time' and if he takes to long, no story. I have explained why I am strict on bedtimes.

DS rarely wants to come for a bath when I tell him it is bath time and then never wants to get out when I finally get in. He just doesn't want to be interrupted in what he is doing. DD is always ready for a bath so we usually start without him and then he hears how much fun we are having and comes to join in. He knows he has the option of a quick shower if he wants to spend more time drawing or whatever.

Oh and as for meal times, I have posted on here before about difficulties getting DS to come to the table. Am constantly remining him he doesn't HAVE to eat but that we come together because meals are social occasions. We have had no problems over the last few weeks since I started telling him that I felt my effort was unappreciated if he didn't come to the table. I compared it to if he drew me a picture and I didn't even look at it. Of course, we still have to do the countdown but comes to the kitchen when the food is ready now.

ALMummy, interesting that you said that it all kicked off when you wanted him to take a bath during a favourite TV show. You can't make up for lost time like that, can you? I find everything takes longer if I try to cut something out unless I have explained and reminded that things are going to be different for whatever reason. Sounds like this thread has been really useful to you.

I do prefer encouraging them to want to do whatever it is to 'because I said so' and punishments but as someone pointed out, sometimes you just have to MAKE them comply (like when you've got to stop what you are doing with a little one and get an older child from school)