What do you do when your 5 year old point blank says "NO" and refuses

[ALMummy]

to tidy his room, go in the bath, go to bed, come to the dinner table etc.

I am at my wits end. There have been constant tantrums over the past week and anything I ask him to do is met with a point blank refusal followed by a screaming tantrum. I think he is beginning to realise that I cant actually MAKE him do anything. What are your tips for getting your DC to co-operate.

as and when my 5yo DS says (well, in facts he screams) NO, then I just pick him up and ut him on the stairs until he complies with what I have asked.....or if out then I remove him to somewhere safe and wait him out.

he eventually does as asked, and I have done it so often now that he knows I mean business and most times just gets on with it after a 'look'....

it doesn need consistency tho.....if he yells no, and you then say "right, well if you won;t do ABC then I will do DEF", you MUST carry thro your threat so that they see you mean it. next time he will test you and so on (it may take days or weeks for them to get the message), but eventually they and you get there and the NO will get less. It will never disappear tho, please remember this, and it will change to 'whatever' too as they grow (and as I have a teen DD doing this ATM), but stick to the same technics and tantrums will get fewer and you will get calmer. being sent to rooms tho work better now for my older DC's, along with removal of PC right and going out ability......mwahahaha.

oh, and while you are fighting this, I find wine helps!

Thank you all. You have given me LOADS to work with. I think that I AM actually relating to my child like I am a child as well. In that I feel as though I am being "nasty" whenever I try to enforce any discipline and therefore he is in fact turning into a bit of a brat at times. I dont actually have many rules written in stone for my DC, just bed, bath, food and tidying up. Its not actually a lot to ask now I look at it and I am not being nasty mummy by insisting on it. No more negotiation about these things. They happen and thats it.

Lots of good advice above.
As well as being firm and calm and enforcing negative consequences I would say concentrate on what is directly in your power to do. This relates closely to imposing negative consequences as mentioned many times above. You can't force him to eat, but you can take his dinner away and not give him any snacks. It's hard to make him hurry up and go to bed, but you can refuse to read a story. It's hard to make him tidy up, but you can put his favourite toys away for a week. Sometimes it is appropriate to withdraw affection and attention for a short time if you have asked him to do something and he doesn't comply or if he has been trying to annoy you.
I think this approach takes the pressure off you and makes you feel more in control.
It sounds like you are being a very caring Mum and with some Mumsnet advice you will soon restore some order! All the best.

hecate makes a very good point, 8only* make threasts you are willing to follow through and actually enforce them, or your ds won't bother listening to you.

Give minimal attention to things like not going to bed, getting into long negotiations etc. just fuels the tnatruming or refusing behaviour.

Try to stay calm too and not react to his shouting, sometimes the more DS shouts and the louder he gets the calmer I appear and the quieter I speak. I may be fuming inside but outside I'm completely unreacting and monosylabic. I think it gets boring for kids if this is the only reaction they get, and it also helps them calm down a bit.

I'm sorry I don't have any quick fix for you but I don't feel comfortable with the lock them in the room suggestions at all

I understand this gets an immediate result but in the long term does nothing for your relationship and is going to increase the feelings of frustration and anger in your child

it sounds like a power struggle - the way to go is not to increase your power so that you always win no matter what, IMO
try explaining, negotiation, giving plenty of warning in advance of something happening, using humour, trying something completely new such as buy a clock and set the alarm to ring when it is bedtime - give choices and a feeling of responsibility
change the routine so something pleasant or interesting happens as you are going up to bed
use your imagination and try to get him on your side and working together as a team - not shutting in his room forcibly whenever he does something you don't want - this isn't how people behave to one another - show him how to reason and solve arguments, not how to win by being the strongest!

I truly have an idea how annoying it is as ds has just turned 5 and is VERY TRYING
however have observed when dp or I are being over authoritative and insisting our rules are followed things get WORSE
we want to bring up independent strong minded adults don't we! don't feel you have to crush any hint of disobedience, you can work with it
think about modelling good behaviour at all times and try to see the funny side

I am half writing this post as advice to MYSELF btw so sorry if it is a bit of a rant

A cabin lock is the same as holding the door shut - i.e. the door is still ajar. So you can keep saying 'please go to bed' or whatever but isn't not actually like locking them in a cupboard. I don't think it's that different to returning them to their room every 30 seconds, which can get a bit violent with a kicking child.

dunno

holding door closed is fine IMHO .. and a short sharp shock that they are not actually the ruler of the known world

I think negotiation can be inappropriate

DD is 7 and every time there is a stupid reason for her to come down when she has been put to bed she goes to bed 15 minutes earlier the next night - it works believe me.

I think you just need to be a bit tougher.

I'm not negotiating with someone who is giving me an angry tirade of "Stupid poohead poo mummy, you're stupid and a poobrain, I hate you and I AM NOT TIRED AND I NEVER SLEEP AND YOU SMELL OF POO AND YOU EAT POO AND YOUR HAIR IS THE SAME COLOUR AS POO MUMMY POOHEAD*!"

I turn my back and close my eyes and say "Night night. Sleep now."

LOL

There's a time and place for reasoning, negotiating and explaining, and as Colditz said, these situations are neither the time or the place and can just exacerbate the situation.

We're not talking about 3yr olds here, the op's DS is 5, that's old enough not to always have to rason or negotiate with.

rebelling is their job, boundaries are ours - agree with most of the suggestions, you just have to find what you are comfortable with and be consistent. Negotiation is only ok imo once dc knows you mean what you say, I think...and only as long as dc can discuss terms instead of whining. And your say is final.

If you're trying the "if you don't do this within 30 minutes etc "
tactic, try a cooker timer with an alarm bell, set the 30 minutes and put the timer out of reach (of little ones) but in view. And if the bell goes....follow up with what you said (bin-liner, removal of fave toy)

"I think he is beginning to realise that I cant actually MAKE him do anything."

Every child realises that at some point.

"What are your tips for getting your DC to co-operate."

Sod the discipline ideas. You'll still have battle and conflict on your hands.

Find things for you and your child to do which both genuinely prefer to the original rejected suggestion.

"to tidy his room"

Ask him. Is he happy with toys all over the floor? If so then fine, it's his room. Would he like you to help him tidy? Help him. Would he like the two of you to invent a tidying game? [me, I actively enjoy putting things away for members of my family, some of whom are in their 30s. Every item put in its home is a gift to the owner, who can then find it again easily. Perhaps sometimes you'd like to tidy his room as a gift to him, a gift without strings.]

"go in the bath". Don't have a bath then. What's the big deal? Go for a swim once a week, that'll get him clean. If there aren't interesting things to do in the bath at the moment, then leave bathing until it is interesting (some children like to bathe with one or other parent; some enjoy bathing at friends houses or with friends when they come to your house. Why would anyone go in a bath simply as a chore? boooo-ring!

"go to bed" I'm one of yer Alfie-Kohn-type no bedtime people. If someone isn't tired and doesn't want to go to bed, then why go to bed? I'd support them in that decision. If they don't want to go to bed because they have more fun things they want to play with, then you need to make going to bed be a really wonderful and lovely thing to do, with hugs and quiet stories with soft toys and whatever else will be more attractive than not being in bed. Having a fight about it is hardly going to make them pleasantly drowsy.

"come to the dinner table" If not hungry, then eat later. If they'd rather eat somewhere else then either have a carpet picnic with them, or provide something sufficiently interesting at the table to make it the preferred place to sit and eat.

I think we all make a lot of rods for our own backs (I know that's a favourite mumsnet phrase by having a certain adult-imposed idea about how the day ought to look. If we let go of those arbitrary rules, our family lives will look less conventional but considerably happier and less conflict-ridden.

forgot - while the minutes count down, stay quite neutral about the approaching "deadline", just point it out occasionally then carry on with what you're doing

Coldiz, agree with you totaly.

When they are beyond reason, why bother trying. Isn't going to help is it?

onwards - I hope little one's teachers also have time to negotiate, play and compromise to this extent

onwardandupward, I'm sorry, I'm all for not using too much punishment but giving them a free rein like that is not going to help anyone.

Ds will tell me he isn't tired but be asleep within 10 minutes of me turning out his light, as for dinner, dinner is at dinner time, everyone else in my household eats at the same time, so he can too, as long as a relative effort has been made with set meals snacks are given when asked for but if he doesn't have the manners to sit at the table whilst everyone else is, he ain't eating.

do you have more than one child onwardandupward?

and if so, what do you do if one needs to go to nursery, say, and the other one doesn't want to leave the house?

I am actually a pretty relaxed parent but I do think that if a child lays waste to the entire home - not just his bedroom - then he should have some responsibility towards clearing it up. DS decides what he wears each day, he decides what he eats - to a certain extent, he decides what activities he wants to do. If we go out for the day we have a big discussion and more often than not we go with his choice. I do think that 5 year olds should go in the bath, have dinner and go to bed within a routine. He is 5 he doesnt really know what he wants with regards to these things. All he knows is he doesnt enjoy them and he is NOT going to do them. To me that is not acceptable, especially when it affects every other member of the family. I do not expect unquestioning obedience and I will often rethink a decision that I may have made hastily, I am never scared to say I was wrong. Thats why I am confused as to how to deal with him at the moment because I have never had to "lay down the law" to him. We have always been very relaxed in our parenting while operating within a routine that suits us all.

As for the going to bed when he wants thing - he would still be prancing around at 4 in the morning if he had his way. How is that healthy or sensible for a 5 year old?

particularly since some poor sod of a teacher will have to cope with the 5 year old being hideously overtired and cranky the next day.

With more than one child, it becomes a three-body problem rather than a two-body one but the principle is the same (and there are more people becoming more and more adept at thinking of ways forward which everyone is happy with)

If one wants to go to nursery and the other doesn't, then you could

find a way for leaving the house to be more interesting and fun for the non-leaver than staying at home.

not go to nursery that day, stay at home instead. Or go to nursery in half an hour instead. Or all do something else instead, which you'd all like, like go to the park (and I already hear the "what if I have to be at work at X am?" rejoinder, and in that case, none of these would be a solution for your family)

longer term, if one child wants to go to nursery and the other regularly doesn't want to be involved in taking them there, then find a different way to get them to nursery, using other parent, a relative or friend, or paying one of the other mums taking a child to nursery at the same time to swing by and pick yours up, maybe.

There are always solutions. We don't always find them in the moment, we sometimes think of what we should have done yesterday which doesn't help that situation but makes all our tomorrows easier.

It's just an alternative way of approaching things, guiding and negotiating without the fall back position of "because I said so", which puts us parents in training for teendom from the word go. At that point we will all have to learn to negotiate and persuade, because saying "because I said so" is hardly going to get a grumpy 17-year old to come with a good grace, right now, in the "lovely smart suit" you bought him, to granny's 70th birthday party, is it?

A completely different tack is to take the zen approach - not trying to persuade anyone of anything necessarily, but being fully present in the moment.

If a child is crying because they don't want to go to bed, instead of pushing on with trying to get them to go, or backing right off and running around with a ball of fury at being RIGHT, dammit, and they WILL be horrible tomorrow, we can just be there, quietly, fully aware of what is happening right now. Watching our emotions flare without having to react to them - just watching the anger in our stomach, being able to feel compassion both for ourselves and our children.

It already isn't going to be a sweet and easy follow-mummy's-routine bedtime. It is how it is. So then, with tenderness and love, how is the happiest way to get from right now to everyone tucked up in bed asleep in an hour or two?

(yeah, guess I've been reading too much Kabat Zinn stuff recently)

onwardandupward, I have to admit to thinking "WHAT?!" to your first post and if I am honest to parts of your second but at the same time some of the things you say do ring true to me and appeal to the way I always wanted to parent. I have never said "because I said so" to my children and I hope I never will. However I do think that a major part of parenting is to produce a child and then in turn an adult who is willing to compromise and thinks of others. If you as the parent are the one doing all the compromising how is your child learning this valuable skill? From your posts it sounds like the adult is the only one doing any negotiating here.

There is a middle ground between holding a door closed and letting your child think they are the ruler of the known world

honest there is

responses like that make me feel that people are terrified to give their children some slack in case they get spoiled

agree no point negotiating at that point in the kind of scenario you describe colditz! However the OP was asking for general help with co-operative behaviour I thought, not just how to deal when in the middle of a major tantrum

there are plenty of other hours in the day in which you can discuss reasonable behaviour and strike some compromises
some situations are best dealt with before they get to the screaming and locking in room stage