I've just smacked my 23 month old and generally feel unable to cope with him

[longleggedloon]

This is my first time on Mumsnet. I logged in tonight in desperation looking for someone else in a similar boat. I can't find any solace in the threads I've looked at as all the replies make handling tantrums so easy. I've tried everything everyone suggests e.g. ignoring, saying No, being consistent, letting him choose wherever possible, loads of praise ... nothing works. I can't reason with him as he has very little language. He hits me and other children, he has tantrums for no apparent reason (this morning when he got up at 7am and called for his daddy, daddy went down, said hello and he flew into a rage...), refuses to eat, says no to every suggestion (bath, food, dressing etc etc). I could go on and on about the numerous incidents in a single day. I can't go to toddler groups or Tumble Tots which we signed up for stupidly as he hits other children and then other mums look at me in digust. Despite all this I've carried on being consistent, firm with things that matter, flexible with things that don't, sticking to his routine, planning outings, trying to play with him more. I've read Dr Green's Toddler Taming. However recently he has got even worse and more and more I've been losing the plot, my temper and slapping him in response to him slapping me. Tonight, he was bashing me, the cupboards, throwing food around etc. so i tried to grab him to put him out in the hall where he goes to calm down. But he hit me hard and I responded by slapping him several times on the hands and face. The worst of it is that I wanted to do worse, I was so angry. The irony of all of this is that he goes to a childminder 2 days a week and is perfectly behaved there. It is no good advising me to talk to my H.V - I have and she just smiled and said "they can be pesky can't they?". Does anyone know of any other help I can get? Are there anger management classes for mums or behavioural specialists for 2 year olds?

I had a really difficult time with dt2, his tantrums were legendary. And he could be very aggressive as well. Despite saying I would never smack, and reasonably knowledgable about parenting methods (who isn't these days with all the programmes) I did end up smacking him a couple of times. I remember one time trying to get his ram rod stiff body into his pushchair for the millionth time and just snapping and smacking several times on the head (blush]
I don't think it is the best way to deal with dcs, but at the same time that phase is over now, and we have a much better relationship and no smacking.
So don't beat yourself up about it, try and get more help if you can, remember that this stage will pass. With dt2 his language was very late in developing so I agree that this plays a part.
I think I got in a real stand off position with dt2, and began to feel quite resentful towards him, which of course made matters worse. You have to try and keep in mind that they are a toddler and they are not rational and sometimes it is just impossible to please them. Also their aggression is usually just frustration and when they hit us, it is not like they are thinking I am going to hurt mummy now. I think it is very hard when a child is being aggressive towards you to not feel angry back but it just esculates the situation.
Even the few smacks that I gave him, has caused me to feel like I have lost ground when I am telling him not to hit other people.
So, just try and remember that you are not alone, and this stage will pass

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This is a real long shot, but how does DS sleep? A friend's son was very like yours and she struggled with his constant tantrums and fighting - she used to get hit regularly with whatever toy he had in his hand, and she could never take him anywhere due to the tantrums and agression. He also had very little speech and when he did talk his voice was quite deep for a toddler. Anyway, they finally got a diagnosis for sleep apnea - maybe google it for a better description than I can give but it basically is where the child has trouble breathing effectively in their sleep and so the body keeps stirring from the deep sleeps meaning that the child wakes exhausted and is therfore hugley irritable through the day. The ironic thing is my friend always thought he was a great sleeper as I dont think he actually really woke up but never really got good sleep. He's since had a op on his adenoids and is prgressing really well.

All this was at its worst at around the age of 2.

Like I said this could be a massive long shot and perhaps he is just a lively toddler but I thought I would pass it on.

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{{{Shiny}}}

LLL, Have you consider doing a bit of signing with him ? My 18 month old DD signs more when she is tired or angry, it seems easier for her to sign than it is to get the words out. Not that she talks much yet.

We didn't go to classes or anything, I just picked a few signs off this BSL online directionary and used them alongside the relevent word.Online BSL Dictionary

HELLO THERE LONG LEGGED LOON!!

Sorry for shouting, but I wanted to get your attention!

I just wanted to say hi and welcome and good on you for reaching out for help and support.

I have 2 kids, both have autism. ds1 was always very volitile. ds2 otoh is so laid back it's unreal!! but ds1 - well. Kicking, spitting, hitting, pushing, biting. He also used to hate to be touched or cuddled. He used to throw things too. He once threw a glass at me and it shattered all over me. He hit another child on the head with a plimsole....the stories go on and on!!

He was DEEPLY frustrated by his inability to communicate his needs and he was overwhelmed by his feelings and he used to lash out. I was lucky that due to my profession at the time, I was trained in such things as control & restraint techniques, so I knew how to hold him so that he couldn't get me! I understood why he did it all, but it was still hard. As his language has come on, his frustration has diminished and today he is a far more balanced, calm child. So there is always hope.

But sometimes I wanted to throttle him. Sometimes I wanted to take him by the legs and swing his head into a wall. I felt RAGE sometimes, I am ashamed to say.

When I felt my feelings overwhelm me, I would put him in a safe place and take myself off for a minute. When he was young, I would put him in the playpen and go out of the room, or I would put him in his cot and go downstairs and put the kettle on and loud music and SCREAM and then go back upstairs with a smile, ready to start again!

Point being - you are going to get frustrated and angry yourself sometimes. You need to have a plan in advance so you know how you will deal with that. You need a time out to gather yourself. It helps you to calm down and regain control.

Hope you stick around mumsnet. It can be very helpful.

My friend has 4 kids, 2 of which are extremely trying, and she says any woman who says she has never felt like killing her kids is lying...or has a nanny

Seriously LLL have you observed DS with the childminder, does she have some form of control technique you have not used yet?

here here miggsie

Ah u are all so lovely. Feeling SO much more positive today. Am not the only one!! Some fab ideas and shall be referring back to the thread. Felt more in control last night when I picked up DS from childminder after my day off. Childminder said "he has been so lovely today". Got him home and he refused to walk from the car so I said " do you want to watch choo choo tv?" (he loves Thomas). He got all excited and walked with me to the front door, climbed the steps and went to sit on the sofa, excitedly pointing at the TV. I turned it on, started the Thomas recording and he shouted "No!!" and then flew into a blinding rage, trying to hit me. I stayed calm, put him in the hall away from me and let him bang his hands against the door for 10 minutes - he was going ballistic and having trouble catching his breath but I didn't want to get close as this usually aggravates him. Eventually he calmed down and when I went to cuddle him, he miraculously responded. The rest of the evening was really difficult - he didn't want to get undressed or get in the bath and tried to hit me at every opportunity but I stayed calm and tried giving him more cuddles each time. He responded to this much better than usually. Golly, it was hard work though and when he went to bed I knew I had done well but at the same time was thinking whether I could manage so well after 10 hours of this. I always start well and it is the build up over the day that finally makes me crack.
My heart goes out to you Shiney - DS isn't as violent as yours sounds. I hope that the replies in this thread help you even a little bit as much as they've helped me. Even just hearing about the behaviour of other toddlers and mums losing the plot had made me feel so much more normal today and I'm starting to think 'I can handle this'.

LLL - that is such a positive post! I am really happy for you Well done. Big pat on the back.

Welcome LLL Most of us have lost it on occasions so try not to beat yourself up. Likewise you do need some help.
I would suggest perhaps looking into the following

1. What he eats and drinks at home compared to the CM's. Food can play a massive part in behaviour, especially additives.
2. Remember that if he sees you getting control by hitting he is likely to copy your behaviour- no hitting in anger.
3. Before responding to the behaviour ask your self what he is trying to achieve? Why is he screaming etc.
4. If you are worried about his speech/language then ask your GP to refer him to a speech and language therapist for assessment- problems in this area can cause frustration for children and they lash out because they cannot get their needs across.
5. If he tantrums then continue what ever you intended regardless so he knows that tantrums do not get him what he wants or out of things he doesn't want IYSWIM.

PS- who ever said that 2y is too young for time out is talking silly. Removing the child from attention will lessen the behaviour because most toddlers like an audience to tantrum to. When you remove the audience it resolves more quickly.

Oh I also forgot to say, that you not taking him places because he behaves badly may mean that he is getting bored. I would just deal with the behaviour while out and about and not worry too much what others think

Well done lll Take each day as it comes and deal with each difficult moment as it comes. You can handle it.

The head-banging is just what ds2 used to do too. I would definitely get his hearing checked. You didn't say; does he sleep well?

HIya,

Boy it sounds tough with your ds. I would ask your hv to complete a SOGS (Schedule of Growing Skills) with you and him. Its basically a check to see if he's up to speed in all areas developmentally and also ask if his hearing and speech needs checking. 23 months is not too young for a referral to a behaviour specialist -ask your hv to refer you to a clinical psychologist in your area for advice. A lot of really good parenting programmes start at 2 years and there may be a group running in your area for parents of pre-schoolers. It sounds like you need to talk to other mums with similar problems as well. Sometimes you can be unlucky with mother and toddler groups where all the mums when you go are confident and the children are well-behaved!!

Great that you're being consistent....its just sounds like he's not getting the messagea s quickly as you'd hope which is why i'd suggest a clinical psychologist to support you in managing his behaviour. another good book is 'the incredible years' by Carolyn Webster-Stratton. Its a US book but really good and easy to read and there are groups all over the country which base themselves in these techniques.

ps - well done for asking for help
Good luck
xxx

Hi LLL Glad you are feeling a bit more positive. I have two sons who have special needs and also difficult behaviour similar to you describe. My youngest who is 2yr 10mth has just been diagnosed with Autistic Spectrum Disorder,and he too sometimes goes mad even when you do something he appears to want (like the Thomas video incident you mentioned, where you put it on and he has a screaming fit) so I know how frustrating and helpless you feel. Likewise with taking them out anywhere. Both of mine did/do not mix well with kids their own age and are prone to aggression (my eldest was worst - he used to bite) and it makes you feel terrible. After 9 years I am learning to ignore the stares/ whispered comments etc. but it still gets to me!
I would press HV for a speech language assessment/ assessment of development. If no joy ask your GP for a referral.

Sure Start if there is one in your area are very good and if you can access their services some run webster stratton parenting courses. And of course if they think that your childs behaviour is extreme they may be able to offer other advice or refer you, or may help you to discuss issues with your HV or GP(your HV sounds quite dismissive- even though she may be trying to make you feel like there is nothing up, she is completing ignoring your request for help - and this is imperative to get help before your other baby comes along and adds a whole new dimension into the mix!)

Congratulations by the way

Another thing to remember is that you will not be able to change ALL the behaviours that you do not like at once, so if I were in your position I would focus on whatever you feel is having the MOST effect on your child and your family and try to deal with this behaviour first (for me the violent behaviour in my son when with other children was it as it stopped me from wanting to take him anywhere - and this is exactly what he needs to do to learn social skills from others)
I was advised (and my childminder to use same method) to use a kind of time out whenever he was aggressive and to use a visual timer so that he could see when time is up. I bought a "time out" teddy from ebay and as soon as I note him being aggressive to another I pick him up and tell him that is not fair, you have to come and sit with me till the bell rings. (note it does not go down well and I have to hold onto him and put up with screaming etc.) and I walk over to my chair, set the timer for two minutes and hold him (sitting him in a chair would not work he would be straight off) I then talk softly to him to distract his attention to listening for the bell ring. I have been doing this for about 3 months and the incidence of these episodes is less (he is ignoring other kids still) however it does still happen. And the other day a smaller boy actually went upto my son and tried to take a toy. My boy screamed and this little lad dove on him and bit him on the side! I was not funny with the mum as I know what it feels like to be on other side of fence and in a funny way you see that other kids also have issues sometimes and do things we would not like them to!
May be worth a try
Hope I do not sound too bossy and I am not saying your son has anything like my kids do.
Take care

I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating things. I'm a GP, and there is definitely help available for these difficulties. Speak to your HV (or GP), and be totally honest about what you're feeling and what's happening. I'm sure they can help.

Hi again.
Since posting last time, not feeling so confident. Haven't smacked DS again but am feeling very depressed. Hubby doesn't know what to do with me. Just spent 4 days as a family in Centre Parcs and it was miserable. DS wouldn't eat any meals, screams about getting dressed, undressed, nappy changes, no TV, TV on wrong channel, going swimming, getting on bike etc etc. Booked him in for a painting session to make lots of mess but he had a fit about that too and wouldn't get up and dance at the Toddler's Disco despite his penchant for dancing. Am despairing and even patient husband is at wit's end. Am going to ring HV and possibly GP tomorrow as suggested and seek help. Am losing the plot.
Will post again soon. Thank you for your continued support.

Man - I am having to breath deeply at comments from Soapox - is she some sort of ignorant wind up?

And she had the cheek to add a few fake smiles - sorry - assume others have already ranted - Oh to be bloody perfect

Have gone back over the thread and it seems there are 2 areas of advice:

1. Get external behavioural help from SureStart/Parentline/Webster-stratton courses/ clinical psychologist/speech therapist/Unisafe/CAMHS. I'm going to go online tonight and see what is in my area.
2. Check out DS's health. Have booked him a GP appointment for 2 weeks time (earliest 'cos of Easter annoyingly)but have to admit that I am sceptical. Why would glue ear/autism/hearing problems/speech problems/sleep apnea/food additives make him a horror with me but an angel with his childminder and relatives? I've talked through things with my childminder and neither of us can see any discrepancy between our approach to him either.

Wish me luck. LLL.

oh dear, LLL that sounds like a pretty shitty holiday! Good luck with the hv, hope you get a helpful one, if not go straight to the gp as RachelG comments seem useful.

Do you have surestart centre near you, maybe find that, they can be really good and should help you get to see a speech and language therapist quickly.

Can't think of much else to say but keep posting and I will keep an eye out. Have you joined your mumsnet local for some support?

sorry x posts

just because he plays up most with you doesnt means its your fault/problem

does your childminder have other mindees? does he react well to the peer pressure to behave?