I've just smacked my 23 month old and generally feel unable to cope with him

[longleggedloon]

This is my first time on Mumsnet. I logged in tonight in desperation looking for someone else in a similar boat. I can't find any solace in the threads I've looked at as all the replies make handling tantrums so easy. I've tried everything everyone suggests e.g. ignoring, saying No, being consistent, letting him choose wherever possible, loads of praise ... nothing works. I can't reason with him as he has very little language. He hits me and other children, he has tantrums for no apparent reason (this morning when he got up at 7am and called for his daddy, daddy went down, said hello and he flew into a rage...), refuses to eat, says no to every suggestion (bath, food, dressing etc etc). I could go on and on about the numerous incidents in a single day. I can't go to toddler groups or Tumble Tots which we signed up for stupidly as he hits other children and then other mums look at me in digust. Despite all this I've carried on being consistent, firm with things that matter, flexible with things that don't, sticking to his routine, planning outings, trying to play with him more. I've read Dr Green's Toddler Taming. However recently he has got even worse and more and more I've been losing the plot, my temper and slapping him in response to him slapping me. Tonight, he was bashing me, the cupboards, throwing food around etc. so i tried to grab him to put him out in the hall where he goes to calm down. But he hit me hard and I responded by slapping him several times on the hands and face. The worst of it is that I wanted to do worse, I was so angry. The irony of all of this is that he goes to a childminder 2 days a week and is perfectly behaved there. It is no good advising me to talk to my H.V - I have and she just smiled and said "they can be pesky can't they?". Does anyone know of any other help I can get? Are there anger management classes for mums or behavioural specialists for 2 year olds?

Which is why I posted in the way I did Jenni. My posts were not unsympathetic, but neither were they saying that what she did was fine!

Sorry - Janni not Jenni.

Anyway, I shall leave you to get on with some good advice for the OP, rather than arguing about whether or not her behaviour was abusive in this (hopefully isolated) instance.

FWIW Longleggedloon, it sounds like you are doing everything you can to guide him through this horrible phase - it IS just a phase, and it WILL pass, as long as you stay firm and loving in how you guide/discipline him. Hang in there - it is hard to stay sane some days, but it will get better, just do not give up on trying to guide him, it will sink in eventually!

I also agree that you need to just have him checked for hearing problems, or perhaps lingering ear infection etc, as of course if he is in pain (even moderate pain) he will react differently to life's small challenges

Not many people I know have found their children easy at that age. I remember a few times calling my DH and saying, come home now before I go mad, and I know some of my friends have, too.

The only thing that worked for me was to go on saying the same things, 'no', 'don't touch' or whatever, over and over and over again, it takes time and endless patience. Which not every human being has, so you need lots of breaks if possible.

Oh my Gosh, smacking a child who has smacked you does NOT make you a child abuser! I must admit I don't condone smacking as a punishment but anyone who says they haven't been tempted to lash out in my opinion is lying (or has incredibly good children!). The fact that you feel bad about what you did and have come to mumsnet for advice means that you are willing to put in the work needed and continue to be a good mum. I have no advice other than that this horrible stage will pass. My dd1 was a beautiful angel baby but by the time she was 20 months I could have quite gladly smacked her. She too would shout and smack for seemingly no reason. Objected to most things, particularly being bathed or dressed. It's a miserable time. Try and get out maybe with friends or family as well as your son. You are less likely to flare up with others aroud to assist! Don't feel bad and for God sake don't think that you are an abuser! My mum smacked us whn we behaved like that and I certainly would never say I was abused as a child!

You need a break, is there anybody who could watch your ds while you go and get a coffee and read a paper? Second the idea for more sleep.

Then you will be more prepared for the shitty days. If there is a surestart centre near you, i would visit and maybe try the hvs there.

Does he get enough exercise and fresh air? If you are feeling nervous maybe try taking him when the park is quiet, early sunday mornings round here so he can get a chance to play outside while you are relaxed a bit.

Might seem a bit bizarre but if his language isnt developing and you think this might be frustrating him could you try teaching him a sign, not full on baby signing but encouraging pointing and a way of him letting you know what he wants.

What time does he go to bed? I find dd easier to manage if she is asleep at 7.30 then i have an evening to myself to unwind a bit.

CONTINUE TO POST AND WE WILL TRY AND HELP.

I don't think you sound like an abuser- just a tired stessed mum who has come to the end of her tether! Don't feel too guilty- of course hitting him isn't ideal, but I doubt this one incident will scar him for life. My girls were, and still are!, a handful, and I am a typical explosive redhead, so I have to work very hard to control my temper with them sometimes- as a result we have lots of marks on the walls where I have gone off and thrown things ! I have been known to do the opposite of the shut-them-in-a-room thing, and hid in the porch with the dogs while they maraud around outside the door, yelling for me (Kind of like a bad zombie movie!) till I am calm enough to come out! He will grow out of it- keep trying to be consistent, stay as calm as you can, walk away if you need to, and call in some support! Its a good idea, as others have suggested to get his hearing etc assessed, as if he is having communication problems that could be making him frustrated. Although if he is good at nursery, it seems he is probably ok. Incidentally, i always found mine were worse when they got back from nursery, where I was assured they had behaved beautifully! I have a theory that the strain of trying to behave so well all day leads to meltdown at night. Good luck! Remember- it'll soon be bedtime, it'll soon be bedtime...

am afraid I have no expertise to advise you LLL, other than hang in there and keep posting, there are people here who can help.

BUT (and without wanting to hijack) when someone has joined here specifically looking for help for something she acknowledges is wrong I find it incredible that anyone could think the most appropriate first response is to accuse her of being a child abuser (because that's how it reads, the actual phrasing is just semantics). How very unhelpful!

longleggedloon - first of all I wanted to say well done for posting, you are brave to be really open about how hard things are. you deserve a big hug

You sound like you've tried lots of approaches, so it might be more helpful for you to meet a specialist who can work with you to try & understand what is going on and why.
Your GP should be able to refer you to a child psychologist who specialises in 'emotional & behavioural problems' in under-5s. That might be a service located in the GP surgery, or in the local CAMHS (Children & Adolescent Mental Health Service - don't be put off by the name!) Sounds like talking to someone who will be able to advise you about your specific circumstances would be best, the child care books are pretty good, but they can fall down because they have to be relatively general. It sounds like you are doing the right sorts of things already, and just need to fine tune some of it. It might be, say, that when you ignore, you are still giving him some feedback without being aware of it.. you know, that kind of thing won't be easy for you to identify by yourself as it is so difficult to see what you are doing from the outside at the time you are doing it.
That is a bit of an overly-simple example, but I hope you know what I mean.

Remember, too, that this is very likely a developmental phase, not who he is, and not how your relationship has to be. Hang in there.

In the meantime, try to give yourself some time out when you can feel your temper rising. As long as he is in a place where he's safe, you going out for a couple of minutes to bring your temperature down won't harm him, and it will definitely be better than you and him feeling awful, because you've ended up losing your temper and slapping him.

I really wish you all the best.

(btw, it's taken me ages to type this, what with having to get up and stir some beans and the like, so I'm sorry if the thread has since moved on and this post is completely obsolete.....)

longleggedloon, it was really brave of you to post with so many details. You did well in trying to get help here, just ignore some unhelpful people around here.

I went to a playgroup today, there was a three year old boy there who hit my DS and then hit another boy, his mother came to him and started talking to him in a low tone (in a language I didn't understand) and while she was doing this she was caressing his head. I watched her thinking, well, what she is doing right now is REINFORCING his behaviour. HOw is that actitude going to stop this child from hitting? If someone caresses your head and smiles at you after hitting someone, what kind of message would you read?

My point is that you need to analyse why your child is doing this and if you are unknowingly reinforcing this behaviour. What did you husband do when he flew into a rage? Maybe he is looking for attention, it seems harsh but In my experience the best way to deal with it when they look for attention and to take him away (a gentle push, he needs to feel you mean business) make no eye contact, say a firm NO, use body language, but if you get angry, talk to him for more than a minute, etc, you are REINFORCING his behaviour.
Ofcourse, when he is being lovely you need to shower him with attention and affection.
I think also that at this age, the consequency of bad behaviour needs to be immediate.
One this is for sure, it is NOT easy. It is so difficult, but please please please step out of the room if you feel you are about to lose it with him.

LLL - absolutely insist to your HV/GP whoever that they refer you to a Webster-Stratton course (sometimes called Incredible Years, or other name - it'll be a 12 wk course). If they say there isn't one then you need to complain to the PCT that they don't offer the NICE recommended support. And early support is better than waiting til 5 yrs when its tougher to manage. There is a book but its not the same as getting the group and individual support, and not feeling alone.

Another thought- its awful that at toddler groups you're looked at with disgust cos your 2 yr old hits - I don't know many 2 yr olds who don't when put in those kind of environments. Mine hits out at me (less now), has in the past pushed and hit other children, never does it at childminders and its normal. I hope you get some support, and try not to feel judged by other parents.

LLL- As others have said, don't stop taking him out because of the hitting factor.
If he hits once warn him, if he does it again leave.
I am taking a guess here, but he sounds a bit frustrated and bored. Taking him out at least oce a day will do you both the world of good.
I suppose you already know that you need to stop shouting at him and hitting him back. Just take a deeep breath.
Enjoy this time. The beauty of just having one child is that you can go with the flow and have lots of days out. Take a book to read whilst he sleeps!!!
Do you have a sure start in you area?
They have child psychologists/ behavioural specialists / speech therapists- all kind of help, and for free!!!
Lastly- don't worry about other people judging you. Relax and try to make him laugh

Sorry- just wanted to add, I agree with the others who have said you need to get in tune with his behaviour. It is very good advice. Change your responses and look at things from his pov- it may help.

You really have my sympathy, I know just how hard it can be at that age and I know how it can all get on top of you. Your ds is too young to understand reasoning or logic and he isn't yet able to cope with how he feels so he lashes out. Some children don't do this and are generally quite placid (none of mine were placid in the slightest, and I found it very challenging at times!!) but your ds sounds a bit more strong willed.

You're a good mum-ok, hitting your ds probably wasn't your finest hour, but you know it wasn't the way to handle it and you're now reaching out for help with your son, that's a pretty good mum.

I agree with the poster about looking into his childcare and seeing if everything is ok there.
The only other bit of advice I've got is just keep trying with the ignoring the bad behaviour and praising the good, thogh it sounds easier than it actually is!
It doesn't last forever and he will not behave like this always.

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OK I have run out of time to read every post and wanted to add my comment. However (hoping I am not repeating) you need to remember one thing: You are wallpaper to him. He knows there are exciting and wonderful new things to do and learn but you are the "norm" (Daddy too). You have to get out with him to those groups. Forget the coffee etc and keep an eye on him. if he looks like he is going to hit sit down near him and be ready to intervene by distraction.

Remember, at his age if he wants something he wants it NOW. Daddy appearing even 30 seconds after he has demanded his presence is an offence. You cant help it but you can hopefully start to realise that he has no patience and keep the obvious on hand. It is not spoiling him to give him that toy now rather than when you have folded the jumper in your hand, it is avoiding a 15 minute tantrum. When he is a bit older you can teach him how to wait.

DD is much younger - 17m - but has been throwing tantrums from 10m. She does have lots of words and I taught her to sign, I can't imagine how bad her tempers would be with no form of communication Have a look for a sing and sign class and go for it, I am convinced it has helped DD learn to talk early and despite the odd bite mark we still manage OK most days I tought her from a "kit" in our local library so if money is an issue after the wasted tumble tots thing see what you can find in yours.

Good Luck and keep posting we are a nice bunch really

Well, the OP has disappeared. Christ alive!!! The woman came on here for advice and is accused of child abuse . I think she knows she did the wrong thing, else she woudlnt have posted. What a brave woman to admit to doing that.

longleggedloon, something has jumped off the page from your posts, you say he has very litle language. I wonder, is he frustrated because of this. Maybe you need to talk to your HV (as useless as she sounds) and ask to be reffered for some speech therapy or at least an assesment. Sign language for babies helps emmensly with this sort of frustration and its really good for establishing a bond. I hope that you stick around on mumsnet to get some good advice, its just that smacking is like a hot potato and people jump on their moral high horse and talk out of their arses some time.

You do need to get some help with this though, next time you get in this position, walk away, make sure he can't hurt himself and leave him to tantrum to himself. He may not learn anything from this, he probably will, but then if you need to hit anything, you can hit the wall (carefully, i did this once when i was a teenager and broke my finger!)

LEM reminds herself to read the whole thread before she posts in anger, it does seem that the OP has lots of sound advice here from sympathetic mumsnetters - sorry guys

Yep, Soapbox on here and Quattrocentro on the other smacking thread really need to be put in 'time out' together to think about their behaviour

I thought Soapbox's post was disgusting and TOTALY INAPPROPRIATE for a first time poster.

AND it was the first reply, to a first time poster. Soapbox, that is not O.K.
We all know how all smacking threads end up. We all know that that word will come up at some point. But that takes experience.
I bet she won't come back. And that is bad.

just read op. i think you should continue with going to tumble tots. toddlers hit each other, i know it is embarrassing but thats just what some of them do. ignore pissy looks from other mums. if your child hits someone make a fuss of other child and quietly take your child away from the scene of the crime. do not make a big thing of it as that is just plain exciting for a toddler.

make sure he is getting enough sleep and enough exercise. chill out! walk away from him if you are losing control. you can't hit a child esp in anger.

take care.

Gosh, I didn't realise I would unleash such a frenzy of comment and debate so quickly. Soapbox, your replies just made me feel isolated and depressed. I don't want to smack my son but as another reply said, it was a reflex to being abused myself. On the one hand, I know he is only a baby, but on the other, he looks at me in such a calculated fashion before trying to hurt me as much as possible. He has deliberately thrown things at me before and I have bruises all over my legs from this. He is very big and strong for his age (the size of a 3 year old currently - he was 10 lb 5 when born). I also don't agree with the mirror comment... Yes, with some things it is obvious he copies me but he has been exhibiting this particular behaviour for nearly a year now and I've only smacked him a couple of times in the last few weeks (that sounds like I think it is ok to have smacked him at all when of course it isn't - I'm just trying to put this in context though) - he didn't learn it from me or from my very patient husband. I'm also a very affectionate person and love hugs etc but DS hates being cuddled and never hugs or kisses me. The mirror comment also doesn't apply to lots of good things - he loves dancing and I rarely dance around the house!
Your comments Soapbox remind me of why I can't talk to my NCT friends about this - mums who have well behaved children seem to think that it is down to them that they are so good. I'm not sure that is true all the time - DS was a wonderful baby (with moments of course) until the age of 1. He slept, ate, smiled and played. Everyone commented on how lovely he was. Was that down to me? Have I suddenly turned from wonderful mother to monstrous mother? The friends that seem to be having some problems with their kids won't admit it - it seems that parenting is the most contentious subject in the whole world sometimes and you've got to pretend that you can handle it.
Anyway, I'm getting off the point. Thank you so much to those of you who have posted so many suggestions, particularly TotalChaos and Saggarmakersbottomknocker, and those of you who also admitted to smacking their children and feeling the same awful guilt. I need to feel I'm not on my own here. I'll have to look through again and analyse all the suggestions further. I think the overriding message seems to be that he is too young to respond to discipline and that I am trying too many tactics - this really made me think. I'm going to make a really big effort to try to just ignore him. By the way, in response to some of your questions - I don't have any family nearby to help, he sleeps 7-7 so he isn't tired, he recently had a hearing test and was fine and he truly is very good at the childminder's. However, a couple of factors which may or may not be relevant are that he has poor eyesight so has glasses and has to wear at patch over his good eye for an hour a day (these things don't seem to bother him though..) and his language is very poor in comparison to other children his age despite the fact that he is a head taller than them all, so I don't know whether that frustrates him. Anyway, it is very addictive unloading like this - must go and do something else. My husband told me to take DS to the childminder for an extra day today so I can get some space for a while. Thank you again for all of your support.

Atleast she came back. Welcome LLL. Glad you feel supported. Give the comments made some thought and come back to us.