getting 3month old baby into a routine - pls help

[kaa0901]

any tips trying to get ds into this new bedtime routine. (after horrendous weekend decided that enough was enough and he would sleep when he was tired not when he wanted to!)

it's taken me 45mins to settle him. he moans and flails his arms and legs about spitting out his dummy. i know he's tired but he fights it and will only settle with my arm round him patting his back. i know he'll be asleep for about 45mins before the same thing happens.

i gave him his tea at 5pm and a 5oz bottle at 6pm so he was fed and warm. the plan is to give him another 6ozs at 10pm so he'll sleep through the night but the last couple of evenings he's been hungry again by 8pm and only a bottle will get him back to sleep

i want to establish a good routine without introducing habits i will only have to break later eg needing me to fall asleep

thanks

Hi Kaa,

I think to offer best advice we would need to know what he's entire routine (or not?!) is through the entire day, as so much of that effects whether babes will settle properly at night. You say he's only 3 months, but sounds like you are already giving him solids? Is this the case? How much does he nap through the day, and is it at regular times? Tell us about his feeds and if, indeed, you are giving him solids

I believe that good daytime sleep can aid bedtime sleep - does he sleep in the day? If he doesn't sleep enough in the day it COULD be that he is overtired and that's making it harder for him to drop off.

My ds at this age did I think 9 to 10am, then 12 to 2pm then a little power nap at about 4pm for a few mins, though he did drop that one pretty early maybe even by 3 months.

However I think all you can do is offer this type of routine - I really feel that if it's a struggle and resulting in a baby crying for ages, then it doesn't suit. And many, many babies of this age do need to be rocked or held to sleep...I do think it's important not to worry about habits you may have to break later; kids need what they need NOW and as a 3 month old he is tiny and sounds like he needs some help dropping off - why the hell not I say, only weeks ago he was still in the womb! Kids adapt and change their capabilities all the time and as they get much bigger can then accept changes.

Just don't worry; do what works NOW.

I think the key is keeping it routine yourself. The more you do it the easier it gets. I wouldn't worry too much about whether you are there or not in getting him off to sleep.
Another thing to getting a good routine is to make sure you start your day at the same time every day. THis might mean (regretfully) waking him up some mornings. Agree with Sycamore tree - need to hear your whole routeine first.

he might be unsettled due to stomach ache from having solid food a little too early

if he needs an extra feed at 8pm, give it to him

3 months is very ,very early to expect a baby to go all night without a feed.

does he drain his bottles? if so, add an extra ounce to his feeds and see if that helps

establishing a routine is hard at this age, as babies have frequent growth spurts, also teething or illness can upset a routine, far better to be led by your baby, and let him sleep and feed when he needs, rather than when you think he ought to.

I agree with HG. Day time sleeps were the same for my two. Was going to say 3 months is too ealry to worry about how he gets off to sleep.

definitely , day time sleeps are so necessary. a baby who is hugely overtired will be too tired to settle easily.

in terms of routine, the most i would do at this point, is try to give baby feed, bath , feed (split feed) and bed, but not much more than that

just emphasising (as if you need it now!) that day time sleep is essential for good night time sleep - you may or may not want to read some of the "routine" books but they will all emphasise that! Although i would now say trust your instincts more than any babycare "manual" you might find having a read of one helpful. I read the lot (and wished i hadn't afterwards!) but quite a short, simple one is "Babywise" - its all very american and i don't agree with what they say about leaving your baby to cry.. but it does have some useful stuff. All the best

"i want to establish a good routine without introducing habits i will only have to break later eg needing me to fall asleep"
I think this is a bit of a misunderstanding, tbh, put about by people who want to sell you books
habits don't necessarily need to be "broken" - babies can be gently encouraged into new habits when they are a bit older and more able to (eg.) comfor themselves and fall asleep by themselves.

at recommending Babywise!
fairylights, are you serious??
words fail me
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babywise

have just read that link

it is strict, routine based, parent led and potentially depriving baby of enough milk

Would it be possible to give him his bottle at 7 rather than 6 as it seems quite soon after a 5 pm tea. Also would he take more than 5 ounces ? Could you try to push this up a little so he can make it more towards 10 for the dream feed?

wow that is some wiki entry!!
OK kaa0901 please ignore me..
in my defence i read it quite a long time ago on the recommendation of several friends who had babies and really rated it..
and having read all the bloody routine books going i would say it is more moderate than others that i am not sure we are allowed to mention..and its a lot shorter! And i found getting into a routine fairly helpful for me..
anyway, i didn't realize it had such bad press, sorry harpsichord and lulu..

Hi Kaa
Our DS2 is 3 months in friday, aren't they lovely

With DS1 I tried too hard too soon to get him into a strict routine, it was horrible for him and for me. IMO routines are for older babies (5-6 months +) at this age you really need to go with the flow a bit more.

The only real routines we have now are in the mornings when we have to be up and about for DS1s nursery and in the evenings when its bath, bottle, bed around 7pm. DS2 then gets a dream feed about 10.30 and fed again whenever he wakes in the night (usually just the once). During the day we're responding to his needs more than forcing a routine on him, he gets hungry every 3 hours or so, so he gets fed, and when he's tired he goes to bed. By watching for the tired signs we've found that he goes to sleep much quicker and on his own as he's ready to sleep. Most days he sleeps about 9-10, then 12-2 and a power nap about 4pm. He definitely settles and sleeps better when he's slept well in the day.
Hope that helps
phee

thanks for all your comments.

the background:

he will be 4months next week (17wks) and has been having baby rice for about 2 weeks becuase he was wanting 40ozs + a day and having discussed it with the h/v , decided to give him some solids to settle him.

he's never been able to take more than a few ozs at a time without being sick so 5-6ozs is his max at the moment and i do agree its too long to expect him to go overnight but until i started putting him down earlier, he was having a bottle at 11pm and sleeping until 6am

the reason for this routine is i'm going back to work in 2 weeks and as i'm a nurse he will be at nursery 12hrs a day so a routine would be beneficial to him

at the moment day time naps are fab - he has about 90mins in the morning and 2hrs after lunch (my lunch - he only has a bottle!)

what i'm concerned about is that he needs to be asleep by about 7pm to get enough sleep so i can get up and be out the house by 7am on the days i'm working as DH has to drop him at nursery at 8am.

i've never been one to get a book to learn parenting but am just looking for any help from other mums who've been there before,

thanks

OMG have just read more about babywise and the author please DO NOT buy that book kaa0901!! Sorry, i feel very embarrassed

am at HV suggesting baby rice

guidelines do advise weaning at around 26 weeks

and it clearly is not settling him is it?

the volume of milk you can give him is more calorific and filling than some baby rice, so it just does not make sense !

did you try hungry baby milk.. again, it might give him a tummy ache, but it is better IMO than early solids

40 + oz a day is, 4 full bottles ? or thereabouts, not that huge a volume IME and IMO

babies need milk

and more milk

and milk

and then more milk

and then a bit more

if you were breastfeeding you would not see how much he was getting, you would just give him as many feeds as he wanted and needed

is he still being sick? is sometihng like reflux a possible issue ? that could account for unsettled and hard to get off to sleep and the vomiting

he can certainly go to bed at 7pm, but he could well need 2 -3 feeds after that , but if he is fed in the night as soon as he wants it, then he should go back to sleep ?

can you give him a feed, then go to bed yourself , DH give the next feed, and you then do any other night feeds if necessary? so you should get some sleep before you have to get up in the night? or can DH do the night feeds?

I used a lot of teh ideas from 12 hours Sleep by 12 weeks by (suzy? Giardano). We tried her ideas and found that the twins were not ready to go through night by 12 weeks but they were soon after - basically, I took the bits that worked for us and I found it really helpful. The only thing i would not recommend was that I experimented with dropping their late afternoon nap and attempted to keep them awake but this just made them sooo grumpy that I quickly reinstated nap time. I mentioned this book on another website and got completely flamed but honestly, it helped me soooo much!

thanks lulumama but i didnt find your comments particularly constructive (sorry but am entitled to my opinion). DS was constantly feeding (no amount of milk would satisfy him) so after discussing it decided to try the actual volume of baby rice to keep him tummy full. he does not have reflux but with large quantities of milk he is unable to keep it down so 8ozs down - 4ozs up .... and an unhappy child! he was ready for some solids and they are working.

Its not he's unsettled, its just he's not used to going to bed when mummy wants him to and isnt good at falling asleep on his own - hence the advice requested.

Hi Kaa - you don't say what time precisely his lunchtime nap is, but I would suggest you don't let him sleep quite so long in the morning (maybe 45mins to an hour) and let him make up the other half hour sleep time if he needs it later afternoon, between 4 and 5 ish, then he is less likely to be over-tired and fretting when you try to put him down at 7pm.

I'm afraid I did find some sanity and solace in a routine book that shall remain nameless, but had sense enough not to force elements that didn't suit either of my LO's.

Sounds like your babe is a hungry boy - if he must have solids at this age, I'd try and give them with his bedtime milk feed. Can you bear to spell out his approx feed times and nap times? I know it sounds anal but really it's the only way to get the full picture and give best advice from our differing experiences with LO's.

Also Kaa - do you use a dummy, and how do you feel about it (there is quite an interesting thread happening on this at the moment). Do you let him cry at all, and if so, how long can you heart take it before you have to cave and cuddle? I think at 3 months they can take 10 mins of crying before you need to go back in to reassure them - but you know your LO best. Do you pick him up when he cries? General consensus opinion (I think?!) is that you shouldn't pick them up once you've put them down to bed unless really necessary - just pats, head strokes and shushes or whatever works....

I think it is very likely that the baby rice is upsetting his stomach, which is making him restless? if it takes 45 minutes to settle him, then he he is up again in 45 minutes, that sounds very unsettled.
persoanlly I would stop the baby rice, and also check out for things like reflux.

i am sorry you do not find my comments constructive

i have offered advice and my opinion, if you don;t want to take it on board, no worries . my first concern is that his digestion is upset anyway and introducing solid might be excacerbating that.

i hope you get sorted and your return to work goes smoothly.

thanks sycanmoretree - approx routine (but this will start earlier when i have to leave at 7am)

bottle at 6am (5ozs)
bottle & baby rice at 9.30 (probably 4ozs)
nap at 10am til 11.30 (he wakes on his own)
bottle (5ozs) at 12
usually walk in pram with dogs (or out shopping) for 90mins at 1pm when he'll sleep for about 2hrs
bottle at 3.30 (5ozs)
bottle and baby rice at 5pm - he's hungry again
bath at 6pm (not every night)
bed 7pmish
bottle 8pm and 10.30

as you can see he eats loads but has been able to sleep through from about 11pm til 6am for about a month.

the baby rice has improved his milk intake is nothing more than to let him go for more than an hour without wanting a bottle (that was why we started it) He doesnt have tummy ache as hes not screaming just moaning that he cant watch the tv with his dad downstairs and is alone in his crib. as soon as you go to him and touch him (cuddle and pat his back) he's fine but wont sleep without me being there

feel i have been shot down in flames for the baby rice .

sycamoretree - i have tried a dummy but he doesnt seem interested. I know about leaving him to cry but its not really crying to start with more like moaning. when he does scream i cant bear it and do go to him (probably shouldnt) but he's still my little baby and i think he's too young to understand why mummy won't come to him

i know its not tummy ache as when i do go to him he laughs and smiles