very concerned: nursery teachers says my son is behind developmentally

[closethippie]

i hate to get defensive about this kind of thing, but my son only turned 3.5 at around Xmas time, and has only been going to nursery since Sept, with lots of breaks in between, he has only just got used to going there regularly since the new year, he enjoys going in every morning now, but used to resist before Xmas, i have been at home with him for over 3 years, he has never had any other caregivers other than hubby and i

he is super sharp, very very affectionate, hugs and kisses all the time, gets into my lap all the time, was bf until very recently so we have a very close physical bond, is bilingual so his english is behind, i am told he doesn't join in with the singing or story reading i assume because he is not used to it or because he doesn't understand due to lack of english, he is an only child so no matter how much we tell he must share, he still doesn't like sharing toys at home or outside (i read somewhere that we shouldn't expect them to understand sharing until they are at least 4, this was confirmed by someone i know who is a child psychologist), so what is going on ? we do remind him he must share constantly and we do have set boundaries of good and bad behaviour at home, although i am opposed to certain types of "descipline" and prefer to just reward him for good behaviour.

i am now told that someone is coming to "assess" my son together with another boy who shows similar "behaviour" and is about the same age.

i am seriously worried that my son is going to get "labelled" at an early age for no other reason other than he doesn't "conform" to set patterns of activity which is bizzare because i specifically chose the nursery on the basis that it isn't mainstream (it is a montessori)

could someone please tell me whether they also have an extremely energetic child who is having simialr issues at 3 or 4 years old ? i would particularly like to hear from bilinguals.

any advice much appreciated.

I wonder what Montessori nursery your child is attending, as I could have written replies to your posts as the mother of the other child.

DS had a bad start in his Montessori school. Even when I insisted to the staff that he was perfectly able to communicate in English, they decided that his shyness was actually lack of language skills. DS, who is not stupid, found it highly comfortable not being asked to speak and at some point I realised they had been communicating with via hand signs! .

The teacher was also concerned that he was not mixing up with other children, decided she couldn't see any imaginative play, and voiced her concerns. What she never said was that she was a cow to him, she never tried to integrate him, she tried to push him into doing what she wanted by force rather than trying to get his interest as she did with any other of the pupils. My son was the only child who was never conforted if he cried at the start of the day. I just kept him in the school because I have great faith in the method and because I knew it would be only a few months before he got a new teacher.

During the holiday club, and away from that teacher, DS flourished, he became more confident and developed a strong friendship with another bilingual kid. And they started to play up...

By the end of the first month in reception the headteacher wanted to speak to us as they were concerned, again, about "his development" and ability to relate to his peers.

So...I bounced the ball back to them and asked them what they were doing to make him feel accepted as it looked as they could only speak negatives about him. I also asked how they were planning to deal with the bullying as if my very placid DS had taken to be unkind there should be a good reason behind it. I also took the report of previous nursery and made a point saying that the word that was normally used to describe DS, by every single person who had taken care of him was "placid" and asked them how such a placid, kind and well behaved little boy could be acting in such way in such an outstanding school. And agreed for DS to be seen by the SENCO.

A few days later we were told that the SENCo had said she couldn't appreciate any problem in the language skills or development, but may have said something about him feeling rejected because they changed the way they dealt with him and since then everyone is happy, from DS to the teacher and obviously ourselves.

Obviously, DS is still his distracted self and copycat so from time to time he gets into trouble, but in general he is doing much better than before and we are, now, very pleased with the way things are going.

So, what I am trying to say here with all this babble is that the SENCO being involved is not a negative thing. If he has a problem they will help him, if he hasn't that will help him as well. At the time I was desperate to take my son out of the school and tbh the only reason I didn't do it, was because they were BRILLIANT at dealing with food allergies and because I knew that sending him to a bigger school, where he would not even get half the attention, was going to make the things worse.

Now that the problem is sorted and DS is getting better and better I am very happy we decided to keep him there. The school is fantastic and DS seems very very happy. We are very pleased with their work.

PS. ... and his new teacher is F A N T A S T I C

memyson and everyone else who has responded to me on this thread - thanks so much. we are going to have more discussions with them to find out exactly where they think the issues arise. i have a hunch from what i have observed that ds and the other bilingual with little english play up and copy each other as a way of getting attention. i think they are also ignored by the other kids, for whatever reason, perhaps to do with language. the other bilingual cried for weeks on end when he first started, but ds had a relatively easy time, although in the first few weeks ds didn't like being left there either and would cling to me.

he is very happy going in now, which is the only thing that comforts me. if i had any hint that he was unhappy or upset there i would pull him out immediately. the issue seems to be the staff and their inexperience in dealing with these two. they seem to be of the view that that these two are simply "naughty" and that they are therefore underdeveloped for their age. i am also getting the cold treatment from most of the other parents who seem to be very up their own you know whats, which doesn't bother me in the least. i am always very pleasant, friendly and try to be chatty with them, so it is their problem, not mine. i hate to say it, but i do wonder whether there is some of the "us and them" going on, the two boys being the only foreigners there.

i may not have much choice to move him. the nearest nursery to us which i am told is a very good one by a friend, is fully booked. we may have to stick to this situation until july and then ds will be at his new school in sept.

Hi Closet
I have only skimmed the thread as I am trying not to MN these days (too much work).
I'm a salt who works bilingually and is a member of a bilingual family.

There seem to be a lot of inter related factors here. It's hard to know what is going on exactly but a good SALT (ie one who knows about bilingualism) should be able to sift out what is 'normal' in view of his present status as a non English speaker and what (if anything) gives cause for concern.

I would be wary of nursery staff making amateur diagnosis. Generally speaking these peopel are fine when everything runs as it should do but often clueless if there are issues (either real or imagined).

Being a non native speaker at such an early age shouldn't cause difficulties in most cases.Remember,most of the world is bilnigual.It's the monoliguals who are the oddities.

DS (also 3.5yo) attends a Montessori nursery which is anything BUT laid back. DS is okay there as he has good concentration, likes his own space and doing stuff for himself, but I don't think it would suit a very energetic child because, frankly, the lady who runs our M'i is a bit of a control freak (or maybe she just comes across that way). But everything has to be done EXACTLY so, from what I can see there. I know my opinion is purely subjective, but I get the impression that Montessori isn't really suited for the most impulsive and "boyish" little boys. (Hence Steiner, and an advantage to more unstructured playgroups, where social skills are everything and fine motor skills and pattern recognition only a little sideline).

It's just when I read this thread I don't get the impression language is the problem, but rather boisterous-ness is (or what they call "energetic" or "hyperactive").

Montessori schools don't fit into a 'suits X' system any more than otehr schools, because the way they function is largely a reflection of the person who leads it, much like anything else. Ours was led by a wonderfully warm lady who was exceptionally gifted with children, and although it stuck to the Montessori technique, the boys (extremely boyish!) never felt so cosseted in their whole lives. If I could have a wish it may well be to employ that wonderful woman to come and help teach the boys now as she had trained also as a SENCO and with BIBIC and she'd get so much mroe out of them than mainstream education is managing.

moondog, you are very observant. i agree. only this weekend i watched ds very closely as he played with two much older children. the boy was 6 or 7 and his sister around 13 or 14. despite the lack of much langauge between them, they played and chased each other for over 30 mins. the communication between them was through laughter, chasing each other, and lots of body language. they all had a great time. ds being an only child is always on the look out for friends who like playing with him.

moondog, i like what you say about bilinguals ; ) it is such a gift.

ds is very energetic, even as a baby we had to keep up with his pace, we learned that we had to follow HIS routines and his pace, not impose anything on him. i think that is exactly it. he doesn't like too much structure, the singing and having stories read to him, etc. even at home at bed time we look at picture books, but he won't let me finish a whole story, he doesn't have the patience to listen for that long : ) he is excellent at playing on his own though, even plays in his own room for hours on end or in the garden in the summer in our sand pit and his diggers and cars you would barely notice he was there ! so if he needs to focus on something he enjoys, he does it.

it is difficult, and i often feel sorry for energetic little boys like mine and worry that they may be getting labelled or tagged for no apparent reason other than they don't always want to do what the adults want them to do. i think girls in general, esp. the more quiet ones have an easier time at "institutions" where there is a lot of structure. i think i must have been a very boring child, because i was very academic and did what the teachers told me to do, hardly ever broke any rules ! it was only when i became a teenager that i started to rebel a bit and even then the rebellion was by develping a sharp tongue to answer back, nothing physical.

i hope i can support ds so that he can realise that a bit of rebellion is a good thing, although i may live to regret it when he hits 13 : )

flack, i have heard of steiner and considered it also until friends gave me bad reports of my local one. they may have less formal structure, but the children at steiner are still expected to "conform" to the group. they won't tolerate the children jumping up and down all day, they have a set pattern to what they do on each day, even if the children are only 3 or 4. there is also a lot of pseudo religious mumbo jumbo at steiner schools, which really turns me off as we are a very secular family.

i guess i am just confused. i am not sure what is suited to ds, i think it is just the beginning of worrying about his education outside the home - sigh.....

Look into the bilingual language development further. Yoyur nursery should be able to help you with this. County Ed departments usually have links ot a bilingual specialist who may be able to discuss your DS and give you proper information.

Like any system individual schools etc differ. I found the local Steiner parent-toddler group to be very welcoming of ds1 when we were struggling to find somewhere for him to go because of his apparent square peggedness. They were happy for him to be who he was (he was very passive, very affectionate, but disengaged & had no idea about group stuff). We moved though and the one closest to us now seems a bit barking. None of my children have gone there.

For a while though the local Steiner parent toddler group saved me because they didn't judge ds1 and they gave him room to be who he was. They didn't force him to join in. In fact he was badly in need of assessment, but they supported me through a tricky time. (and we came out atheists still, watching TV and wearing black! )

disengaged with the group I mean. He was always happy to be with me. He just didn't get the whole kid stuff, nor did he base his behaviour on them (which is a problem in most nursery settings- although I didn't really realise that until I had ds2 and ds3 who did use the other kids as models for their behaviour iyswim)

Montessori was established (albeit many years ago- 1920's wasnt it? have a presentation somewhere and some books, but buried in The Shed Of Doom atm) for kids with SN or additinal needs of other sorts (such as those from disadvanaged backgrounds)

As an aside, while it is important that your DS is able to communicate with other children, as you have seen this weekend he can communicate without understanding every word.

In DS's group at kindergarten there is a little deaf boy. DS loves playing with him, they play together a lot, all on a non-verbal basis. The teacher told me that they communicate using a very basic sign language.

'they won't tolerate the children jumping up and down all day, they have a set pattern to what they do on each day,'

TBH most nurseries won't tolerate children who jump up and down all day, the whole point is that they attend to learn social skills including appropriateness of behaviour etc.

Yes, they do have a set 'pattern' - every ofsted registered nursery has Early Year Goals to attempt to reach with all children.

My DS DOES have behavioural/communication and understanding issues and I would be furious if either of the 2 nurseries (one mainstream and one SN) allowed him to do nothing but jump up and down all day (or as he would like to do, push a car around all day). They would be failing in assisting him to reach him potential, every child needs to be 'challenged' (eg asked to take part in something new) to widen his scope of learning.

Not wishing any part of my post to sound unsupportive, but if you want him to jump up and down all day (which probably prevents him from socialising and taking part in early years education)why send him to any nursery?

norty, with due respcet, where have i said that my son jumps up and down all day ? he doesn't. i was just making a comment re. what someone else said re free play at steiner schools. their play time, etc isn't that free which is what i was trying to say. my friends say they are very strict and have set patterns in what they do every day, the children are not allowed to do everything as they please.

the behaviour they describe of ds is very different to the behaviour we observe at home. he is energetic, but we have set rules at home, we do not allow rudeness, bad language, climbing on to tables, etc. his "misbehaviour" has been described as he "does not like sharing toys" and "he does not sit with us for the whole meal" and "he does not enjoy long singing and reading sessions". he has been there for a total of 2.5 months. these are hardly crimes !!!!

what he enjoys most is physical activity which iw why i make sure i take him for walks and parks with playgrounds, etc. i have accepetd the fact that he needs to burn off his physical energy, beacuse that is the way he is built.

it is bizarre, because i have been taking him to restaurants and coffee shops since he was a baby, and he actually for a child of his age, is amazing, he will sit through an entire 3 course meal. we give him cars nad crayons and food and drinks and he is happy to sit still with us. he knows that you don't walk around and make lots of noise in a restaurant, because we won't allow it.

only today i saw two of the older boys who are around 5 and 6 turn away (one actually turned his back to us) from ds and i the minute they saw us walk through the door. i am not being paranoid. several of the parents do the same. one boy regularly points at my son and says "there is the naughty one" and his father does not say a word, he obviously agrees with his son. how rude. would any one on this thread feel comfortable being treated like this ? it seems that the other children and parents have decided it is ok to ignore us and it is showing very clearly in their attitude.

i really can not see what crime any of us have committed to be treated so rudely.

my son is trying to learn new skills re. sharing toys, talking english, etc. he is isn't an ASBO nor are we. there is absolutley no justification for their rudeness.

we obvioulsy need to be somewhere more multicultural where the needs of all children are seen as of equal importance.

there isn't and has never been a single black or asian child at the school from what i have heard. now i know why.

we live in a very international place, with many ethnic minorities. i am surprised that it had not dawned on me before why there are no non-europeans at this school.

I don't think the nursery are treating you rudely. They just have concerns that they're trying to address. If their concerns are unfounded then that will become apparent very quickly. I don't think it's a judgment to get people into observe a child.

How's his speech and communication in his first language? If you're concerned that he's being labelled would it be possible to get an assessment in his first language? (I know that's not easy- it's often difficult for Welsh speaking children to receive SALT in Welsh for example).

The nursery sounds like they're not communicating that well. I doubt that they mean that the things he isn't doing are 'crimes'. Of course they're not. Sometimes they can indicate some problems. sometimes not, but they're not in a position to tell- so if they have concerns it is useful for them to have someone into observe. As moondog said it would be ideal if they were experienced with bilinguilism.

Can I just mention that DS1 and, to an extent ds3 now he is in school, don't necessarily behave at home as they do there- ds1 in particular. He's fairly well behaved at school and a challenge at home, although many children are the other way round and this is know SOMETIMES to go hand in hand with certain SEN's. So the fact he isn't the same at home isn't necessarily significant, iyswim. It's more to do with safe spaces and / or response to over stimulus through a large number of other children.

yurt, his language development and communication in our language are excellent for his age. the only contact he has with the language is through dh and i and some cd's and story books. we went abroad last year and within a short space of time, as he was surrounded by the language, we suddenly noticed that he had picked up lots of new vocab. and was speaking much more fluently. he also understands the cololquial and nuianses of our language, which sometimes really surprises us. if we went and lived there say for 3 months, i think he would be talking the langauge like other natives his age. i have no doubt about this at all. our relatives and friends also say he is extremely bright.

i am sorry that i am not admtiing to what language we speak nor where we were born. it would make us recognisable and it may be some one who knows us at the nursery reads this thread, which would obviously be very unpleasant for all of us.

the nursery have now admitted, after further questioning re. the assessment, that they have absolutely no concerns re. his ability to learn or understand english nor his intelligence. they say he is super sharp. in fact they say he understands most of what they say to him and he follows instructions in english, they are not sure whether he follows the stories in english though. i have taught him several english nursery ryhmes and he says them brillinatly, not a perfect english accent, but the words are quite clearly pronounced.

if i had not questioned them further re. the assessment i would not have found out which i now have after further questioning, that someone is coming in soon to assess ds and the other biligual boy. they seem to have real concerns re the other boy, possible autism or another issue.

the nursery have categorically admitted to me now that they have NO such concerns re. my son. we have lots of medical professioanls on both sides of the family, my cousin is a paedetrician. no one has ever raised any medical or other concerns re. ds, quiet the opposite in fact.

i have said that dh and i wish to know who the person is coming in to assess and we wish to speak to them and read their report. they have said fine, but this has been accepted only after further, detailed questioning by us. they were not so forthcoming before.

i find it all rather unpleasnt, underhand and unprofessional to be honest.

Mine are trilingual - I've just hired a nanny in the school language for 6 months to give them a boost before next year actually. It's difficult to spend the whole day having trouble communicating, and not surprising they don't always behave like angels really.

In al honesty... although I agree that the school has to find a way that helps your child to integrate, I someway think, from your post, that you may not be exactly doing things easier for the school, yourself or even your own child:

"ds is very energetic, even as a baby we had to keep up with his pace, we learned that we had to follow HIS routines and his pace, not impose anything on him. i think that is exactly it. he doesn't like too much structure,"

TBH all children would like to set their own routines, and forget about structure. But unfotunately, at 3.5 years old, this aproach may backfire. I would say that many children are at his worse when the routines are broken, or no structure is present. They tend to draw some security from knowing what to expect.

Would add that the approach detailed below will NOT work at school, so perhpas some gentle rutines now may benefit him in the long run in terms of adapting to school life?

memyson, did i say that at 3.5 we have no routines ?

i was talking about my excl. bf baby. he was excl, bf until 6 months and then bf until very recently. i allowed him to self-wean. he has been going to bed at the same time very single night since he was about 9 months old, we don't allow him to stay up later than 8pm (frankly he doens't even want to, because he gets very tired by around 7 pm any way and likes going up to his room with us).

we look at books and play a few things and then dh or i lie next to him until he falls asleep. we have been doing this since he was a baby. we eat at the same time every day, brush teeth twice a day at around the same time, etc.

why do people always have to assume that just because we don't put our son into a straight jacket or the fact that i was opposed to putting him into straps when he started to walk because i found it too restrictive for an energetic toddler, that we therefore allow him to run amok ?

why do people think our style of parenting equals no descipline ?

i am sorry, i think people just assume things about us and how we live without knowing anything about us. i find that arrogant. i wouldn't dare make assumptions about how others bring up their children on the basis of how energetic their children are.

just because a child of 3.5 looks very passive on the outside in public, does that make them a better child with more descipline at home ?

only today i have brought ds home with a huge scratch on his eye ball, done with a stick by another boy at his nursery and observed him being pushed very hard into the wall by another child. the pushing came competely out of the blue while ds was standing next to me getting dressed to get home. it was just a total random act by another child for no reason. i wasn't there to watch why he had been scratched with a stick on his eye. his eye was all watery and red. even the nursery teacher came up and made the other boy say sorry to ds.

i think it takes two to tango to be honest. the other children there are not angels, if thay are pushing and shoving without provocation. i think i need to sit and watch what goes on in there. there is more to it than the nursery people are telling me obviously.

Please have his eye looked at by an optician. Poor lad

Erm... this is an internet site, I don't know you, you don't know me, and all what I have written are my opinions on what you have written in this thread (quoted)

I think you are reading far more in my post than there is in it.

thanks hunker, i am so upset today.