very concerned: nursery teachers says my son is behind developmentally

[closethippie]

i hate to get defensive about this kind of thing, but my son only turned 3.5 at around Xmas time, and has only been going to nursery since Sept, with lots of breaks in between, he has only just got used to going there regularly since the new year, he enjoys going in every morning now, but used to resist before Xmas, i have been at home with him for over 3 years, he has never had any other caregivers other than hubby and i

he is super sharp, very very affectionate, hugs and kisses all the time, gets into my lap all the time, was bf until very recently so we have a very close physical bond, is bilingual so his english is behind, i am told he doesn't join in with the singing or story reading i assume because he is not used to it or because he doesn't understand due to lack of english, he is an only child so no matter how much we tell he must share, he still doesn't like sharing toys at home or outside (i read somewhere that we shouldn't expect them to understand sharing until they are at least 4, this was confirmed by someone i know who is a child psychologist), so what is going on ? we do remind him he must share constantly and we do have set boundaries of good and bad behaviour at home, although i am opposed to certain types of "descipline" and prefer to just reward him for good behaviour.

i am now told that someone is coming to "assess" my son together with another boy who shows similar "behaviour" and is about the same age.

i am seriously worried that my son is going to get "labelled" at an early age for no other reason other than he doesn't "conform" to set patterns of activity which is bizzare because i specifically chose the nursery on the basis that it isn't mainstream (it is a montessori)

could someone please tell me whether they also have an extremely energetic child who is having simialr issues at 3 or 4 years old ? i would particularly like to hear from bilinguals.

any advice much appreciated.

My ds didn't join in with singing, circle time any of that stuff in nursery. He just didn't like to. He was still reluctant in reception. Nobody suggested that he was 'behind' in any way because of it. This was about 11 or 12 years ago though, so maybe the way they assess these things is different.
Have they said that there is anything else that raises their concerns?

It does sound strange as nothing you mention sounds particularly odd. Did they say anything more specific about why they think there could be a problem? I have a friend whose daughter is bilingual and she is also behind with english so again fairly normal. She is also an only child but because she has no siblings has no idea how to defend herself against other children snatching etc

Not bilingual, but having exactly the same issues with our third child, ds who is 3.3 years. I too was very wary of this assessment process, but I've gone along with it and so far it's been helpful. I still don't think ds has a problem. HV thinks he's o.k. She says that sometimes if a child is strong academically (ds knows all his numbers and letters) then this can be at the expense of emotional and social development. Just like some children have to be painstakingly taught how to read, some children have to go through the same process for social skills. I've been going into the nursery and sort of exagerratingly teaching him how to talk and interact with others. Could you go in?
He's fine at home with his siblings and other children who visit. It's just big groups he struggles in. The nursery should also have asked for your permission for the assessment - you can always stay in control of this process.

Bilingual kids do tend to develop other language skills late, which is fair enough on balance.

don't worry about labels, the process of diagnosing a learning difficulty takes years in my experience and so you'd be well able to intervene and put a stop before that.

I am pretty sure I know waht they're looking for and I am surprised as my eldest son has the condition and in fact fitted very well indeed into the Montessori setting.

Obv. I have no idea about your son but i would personally allow this assessment because it amy mean your child gets support on one or two issues that he struggles with and then compeltely disappear and all is well. There's absolutely no requirement to accept any help beyond that unless you wanted to.

So, how is he in his mother tongue?

Don't lose sight that there may well be nothing wrong, but nurseries have to tick all the boxes. A friend went through a similar thing with her son - assessments etc. and they were simply erring on the side of caution, which, actually, isn't a bad thing.

Hold onto the facts: he is healthy, happy and bilingual - a pretty good start in life. I'm not going to say "Don't worry" because you are going to. Simply, keep posting, as you will get loads of help and support.

Doesn't sound like there is anyhting to worry about - perhaps they would just like him to join in more so he enjoys it more. I would discuss your worries wth them just to clarify what they think the problem is.

My children are bilingual, but stronger in the language of the nursery (German) so have had no problems settling in.

Actually, no. On reflection, that is not true of DD. She was at the time stronger in English but coped really well after the first few weeks.

Your DS sounds a bit like my friend's little girl. She is to have speech therapy as her language skills are a bit behind and has been having problems settling into Kindergarten. The teachers have had several discussions with my friend and think that part of her problem is the language barrier. The other children do not understand her very well, and so tend not to want to play with her. If your DS is not being understood by the other children then he may find it difficult to integrate fully into the group.

It may be that once his english language skills improve that his social skills will improve as well.

I've been in a similar position. If you are really interested in details you'll have to find the post I listed back in August or September 2007.
To cut a long story short, I changed nursery and have had no problems since. I believe that some nursery staff aren't confident or experienced enough and report the slightest developmental suspicious/concern so there's never any comback to them. If you are confident there's nothing wrong, perhaps your lo would be better elsewhere. My dd is thriving and I'm so happy I changed nurseries when I did. It meant she spent a term at 2 nurseries (otherwise I risked loosing the deposit) but it was worth it in the end.

thanks everyone. my son started to speak well in our mother tongue around age 3. so in our main language he has been making full sentences for the past 6 months. he doesn't have any problems with learning languages or numbers, he just hasn't had much exposure to english until last sept.

the nursery has said they think he is very sharp and "on the ball", it is the hyperactivity and not joining in that seems to concern them, although they have only said this recently, last term, before Xmas, they said he was doing really well and they had NO concerns, so i am surprised as he enjoys going in now, hardly looks back at me, before he used to get upset when i left.

he seems to understand quite a lot in english (i let him watch cbeebies), but can't say much in return. i had huge problems when i first came to the UK age 9, was horribly bullied (all girls private school !) until i learned to reply back in english and then had loads of friends and became very popular quickly, so i know things will get better for my son when he learns english.

i think you are right, the other children don't want to play with him because he doesn't speak english.

i will ask about the assessment thing, i think they said it was partly due to getting extra help in so they need to get the local council involved, i just don't wish to have my son used as an excuse to get extra funding, if you know what i mean.

i think i will just have to go and sit in for a whole morning to see what goes on. that mght be the best thing. i will also ask to speak to the people coming to assess.

mumofhelen - thanks i did think of doing that but that would mean putting him into a much bigger "mainstream" nursery with much bigger groups of children - if he is having a problem socialising in a group of 10, i think he will find it even harder in a bigger group

because he is a summer baby, he actually starts school this coming sept. i am hoping he will have gained a lot more english in the next 6 or 7 months which will make life in a bigger class at school a bit easier for him

He won't get 'labelled'. It's probably some sort of pre-school advisory teacher coming in to give some advice, have a look. If she has concerns there'll be a further referral, but a diagnosis for something developmental takes a long time - and is nearly always multi-disciplinary. Under, rather than over diagnosis is the problem in the UK.

Do ask to meet the person afterwards- some nurseries forget to invite parents along. I've always asked to meet anyone whose observed my son, or at least talk on the phone after an observation. The pros are happy to discuss.

If the following is any help to any mums, my advice is to avoid my dd experience:

So long as the nursery is clean and the toys safe (i.e not broken), don't worry about the presentation. Just because the nursery is purpose built, with fancy pictures and posters and shinny new toys, do not be fooled into thinking it's any good.
Investigating the staff's background - especially the one who will be writing up the notes and 'teaching' your lo - is far, far more important. In particular, how many years experience do they have?

I only discovered once dd was leaving the nursery, that the member of staff who had voiced all these numerous 'concerns' had only just qualified at NVQ level 3 ON THE JOB. In other words, she was totally unqualified when she wrote all those concerns about dd. In fact, when dd left the nursery, she still hadn't received her NVQ level 3 certificate! I know this because I asked to see it and she could not produce the certificate. Even worse, she had only just started at that nursery the previous September and her previous experience in child care and education? She had been a childminder for 1 year.

Now compare that to dd current nursery staff. The nursery teacher has 3 grown up children and has been a nursery teacher for 18 years, 13 years spent in the current nursery. Her assistant - a nursery nurse - has just over 20 years experience and has worked in 3 nurseries, the current one where dd attends is her 3rd.

I can assure you, there is no comparison whatsoever. Dd's current nursery is head and shoulders above her previous one. The staff didn't need to send dd to an 'expert' or 'assessment'. Within a term, they had sorted out the issues.

By the way, dd did attend the SALT assessment (over an 1 hour long) and the verdict? "No further appointments required." The SALT told us, ?There is nothing wrong with Helen."

I would also second yurt1 comment: The pros are happy to discuss. The SALT was excellent which is probably why I'm not too bitter about what happened.

What a sad world; 'assessment' for 'behavioural problems' for a hyeractive little boy who doesn't want to sing some songs in a 'foreign' language!
Are you sure this is the right nursery for him?
Off topic a bit but in these days of limited resources wouldn't speach therapy for a young bilingual child be misplaced, surely they should be assessing children with functional/structural problems IYSWIM oh where's moondog when you need her?

Good point, 1dilemma about speech therapy for bilingual children.

Since he is speaking the other language well then I would be surprised if they suggested speech therapy.

We went to speech therapy with DD and it was pretty useless tbh, as we could not find a bilingual therapist.

This doesn;t sound like a SALT assessment though. All councils have some sort of early years team whose job it is to support nurseries. The early years workers are trained to observe and identify children with needs, and also to support nurseries. Some are numbskulls, many are budget aware, but they can be helpful. It's only an observation and is a way of avoiding uneccessary referrals to ed psychs and cdc's.

Didn't think it did, I was responding to kindersurprise and mumofhelen, but on re-reading kinders bit I think I may have been confused and her friends dd wasn't bilingual.
I would still question whether this was the right nursery closethippie whan you are out with friends and their dcs what do you think of his behaviour then? Is it much the same? Does he have issues? Does he have cousins, what is he like playing with children in his 'home' language?

Have already posted on your other thread. Just finding it odd that they want to assess him on the basis of not speaking English (unless there are behavioural problems you don't mention). Surely there must be lots of kids around who don't; that hardly counts as a developmental problem. Do they realise he is bilingual? It sounds really weird; as I mentioned on the other thread, my ds's highly experienced playschool teachers didn't seem at all shocked when he stopped speaking English for a term and just went selectively mute. They took my word for it that his development was perfectly normal. Which is why 1dilemma's point is very important- how does he cope the rest of the time? What do your friends/other mums with children a similar age think of him? Do you think he seems different from other kids his age?

there is another boy at the nursery, similar age to ds, also bilingual. he sticks to ds because he doesn't speak english either. what i have noticed is that when ds and this boy are together, they "play up" that is one starts copying the other. this is what concerns me most. i have a feeling if these two were separated then the hyperactivity would go away. i went and stood behind the curtains once when ds was with another boy and one of the nursery staff was reading to ds and this boy, they were both sitting quietly. on another occassion though, it was ds and the bilingual boy being read to, and it was a completley different scene, neither would sit still and they were both disruptive. it seems to me that ds and this other bilingual need to be separated, but that is going to be difficult to do in such a small nursery.

Well, that's a problem for the nursery to sort out! There are always children who egg each other on, but are little darlings apart - the nursery really ought to be used to that one.

I would say that from me, it's really a big language factor.

My ds started german speaking kg aged 5 with only a bit of German. The end of 1st year report broke my heart - he didn't join in, sat with his back to his class mates etc etc. And this is so much older than your ds!

Then summer holiday, playing outside with all the swiss kids, it all just clicked and literally changed overnight. The reassuring thing for me was how different he was - outgoing, confident etc with English speakers so I was sure it was a language thing, and it was, and now it's all come out in the wash.

being an only child (we don't have any cousins or friends with similar age children who live near us sadly) i only see him interact with other children when we are in the playground. i have been told on numerous occassions by other parents that they are impressed how gentle he is with younger children. he is also very confident and chatty around adults. i have mentioned these things to the nursery staff. one of them always brushes off my discussion of ds being an only child as irrelevant. she says that the hyperactivty and high energy are to do with his personality, nothing to do with who he is with. i actually disagree with this, because i can see the different kinds of behaviour when he is around different types of children.

i don't wish this to be an apology from me though, i am concerned that ds must not copy bad behaviour and of course would like him to be around all kinds of children without "playing up". i am told by the same nursery assistant that ds is developmentally behind and that he is more like a 3 year old than a 4 year old. she bases this assertion on his behaviour, not on his intelligence. she says he is very bright, picks up new skills quickly and also learns new words like a sponge, so i guess it is the behaviour that is causing concern, not joining in at singing time or story time, etc. we have suggested that this has to do with his lack of english, but she insists that this is not the case.

she also mentions the names of other boys who are about 6 months older than ds and says they are not the same as ds, i.e. they are better behaved. the one she keeps mentioning though speaks english as his mother language as he has an english father, so it appears that he has no issues with integration.

I have had similar stuff about my children (also multi-lingual).

dd2 is now 4, she wasnt really speaking AT ALL until she was 3 yrs 10 months. She had been exposed to 3 languages during that time. She is now confidently bilingual in german and english, and occasionally speaks french.

I am sure she didnt join in when she first went to kiga, but fortunately it is a montessori, so they were quite laid back, and concentrated on giving her stuff to do, not trying to compare her to other mono-lingual children.

I also have the problem with my older children, that the teachers are always saying that my children are doing badly in teh school, and it cant be the language problem, Frau Nighty because your children speak perfect german. It IS the language problem.
For example, ds2 often spells words the french way, eg "si" instead of "sie". And he learns far, far quicker in english than in german, even though he seems now to have mother tongue german.

My impression is that many teacher dont have good experience or knowledge about bilingual children, and can easily assume that language isnt a problem any more. But the experience of a monolingual child is so, so different from the experience of a child who only hears the teaching language at school, and has only been learning it for a couple of years, that it must be taken into account.

nighbynight - i know exactly what you mean - i have experience of becoming bilingual at age 9 or 10 and it really wasn't easy. i went through months of crying, being upset, feeling rejected and isolated until i learned english. the good news is things changed when i learned to speak fluently. i was hoping that things would be easier for ds though as he is so much younger and i think children that young are more forgiving of other children who don't speak english well. older children can be much more difficult to integrate with.

I would just let the nursery bring in who ever they feel could help your son tbh. The thing is, if you turn this down (which you are perfectly entitiled to do so) and he then continues to have the same issues at school then you will find it much more difficult to access this type of services. From experiance i can tell you that all they will do is observe him for a short time (1 hour max) and then offer nursery advice on how best he can over come his difficulties.