ARE boys different from girls behaviourally from the beginning ...

[prefernot]

Dp and I keep having this conversation about what makes boys and girls different from the very outset (apart from physiological things obviously ) and wondering whether certain often remarked on differences like girls talk earlier than boys / boys are better eaters etc. are just cliches or if true are due to nature or nurture. I tend to think now that biology plays an important part but dp is convinced that up-bringing is more important a factor. What do you guys think in relation to your own kids and others you've come across?

YES! Sorry to all those who think not. Ihad two boys followed by a girl and then another boy. The boys are very good with remote controls, mechanisms, etc (ds3 aged 21 months can work the video player but unfortunately broke it the other day grrr) whereas dd, from a tiny baby would clutch at clothes and hold them for dear life, absolutely LOVES receiving clothes as presents (ds's turn their noses up) and STILL can't operate the video player although she is 4.5 and has been shown how to nearly every day! (Not that it matters now that ds3 has broken it).
I could give many more examples. We are constantly struck by how different she is, and how different she was as a tiny baby before she was aware of her gender.

Ah, so you'd say nature rather than nurture?

Yes, mine were from the moment they could move. Dd was quieter in the womb, ds was like a whirling dervish. Dd always loved to make things and draw and colour. Ds is facinated with building models. I tried my hardest to get dd interested in the toy train set, no chance!

I would say 50:50 as you can't take out the effect of society as a whole, but basicaly you can oly shape the edges of what you have been given.

And remember that there will still be cross over, some boys will be more 'nurturing' than some girls and so on.

I think nature and nurture both play a part.

Hi Lonelymum - yes I agree with that.
I have four altogether 2 daughters, 1 son, and 1 grandson - each one has been totally different to the previous one, so I don't think it's necessarily a gender thing. What I have noticed is that each displays my personality as I was at the time they were young, with each one being more laid back and relaxed than the previous one.

Even though my DD is a total tomboy, and plays with boys in preference to girls, she's still very different from DS. Much more into soft toys and imaginary games with them, much happier to sit and colour or draw, learning to read far quicker than he did - and don't even mention clothes... choosingbuyingdressing up...

DH and I both feel (from our very small sample of two!) that there are differences between boys and girls that go beyond nurture.

Male and female brains are different. I don't think that is remotely controversial - the language centres in girls tend to be more developed etc (though there will be a huge variety in individuals of both sexes). Boys are more fragile as babies, physically and mentally - again that's a fact, in that they are more prone to die (thank god very rarely) and suffer from developmental disorders such as autism. I think the problem is when it's thought that it's OK to treat boys more roughly or to 'toughen them up' when they are only babies etc. I think babies of both sexes - esp tiny babies, need the same handling, and if anything, boys need more mollycoddling than girls.

I didn't really see any differences with my ds and dd until they were about 18months. Now at 5 and 7 they are obviously very different.

Agree 100% re the differences in brain structure. They have also found that the brains of transgender patients tend to resemble the brain they 'feel' they have. And as the hormone theraphy kicks in their brains become more and more like the other gender IYSWIM.

I think it's more nature than nurture too, although there is probably still a small element of nurture despite our best efforts. Look at the handwritting/colouring differences across the genders for example, I'm always amazed at how much neater the girls are - their fine motor control seems to develop way earlier than for boys.

the whole nature / nurture debate fascinates me. IME girls tend to be much calmer in mood than boys up to teenage and then it seems to change. Id also agree that boys are better eaters than girls but only past 4, girls good eaters as babies then change around 3.

I think nurture wins in my case. My ds has not seen his genetic father since he was one and has been bought up by dh for 3 years! DS shows all signs as if he was DH son! His characteristics and mannerisms all echo DH and he has even started to look like DH and we always get comment like 'isnt he like his daddy!' from people we dont know!

I think the nurture side is very subconscious - ie however much we might THINK we're treating our girls & boys the same, we just can't help dealing with them differently without knowing it. This book is FASCINATING on this subject, and a great read which I think most mums would really identify with - highly recommended

I have 3 boys - they are all very physical - like to wrestle a lot, run around etc. The only time the sit still is to have books read to them. They are not keen on things like drawing and painting. Are totally addicted to tractors and farm machinery, and farm animals. They are all very affectionate and need lots of emotional support. They like soft toys and my childhood doll.

The girls I know tend to be quieter, less physical.

My ds is a very cuddly, affectionate boy. But enjoys wrestling on the floor with daddy, very strong, loves cars, trains, remote controls, gadgets of all descriptions.
How much of that is nature? Not sure dh would be wrestling with a dd of equivalent age, for instance. But the gadget, button pressing, trucks, cars stuff was spontaneous. Maybe if he was a dd, though, we wouldn't have responded by buying him the toys that seemed to fit those interests?

I do think so, there's a fantastic book about this that I have found fascinating: Raising boys (by Stephen Biddulph).

Thanks everyone for the replies. Dp thinks that even the aspects of brain development in a child could potentially be put down to the structure of their upbringing. For instance he thinks that perhaps girls brains develop language centres more quickly than boys because they identify with the mother as being the same sex and mothers chatter away to their kids all the time in a way that often fathers don't (of course this is a vast generalisation I'm making but hopefully you'll get the picture) so their brains respond and react to the sex they identify with which thus makes their brains develop more quickly in that particular area. It's kind of interesting but I'm not sure how much I agree.

but doesn't that beg the question of why a boy would identify with his father and a girl with her mother? there would need to be some innate difference in order for a young child to perceive themself to be 'like' one parent and 'unlike' the other. IME mothers chatter away to the firstborn and throw the occasional passing comment to the second, third etc born (another vast generalisation).
At nursery I have observed boys & girls playing with the same toys but in different ways. eg DD gets very involved with cars and puts them into garages, sorts and tidies them, whereas boys her age seem to make vroom vroom noises and stage car crashes. Superficially I don't think the staff steer either sex towards any particular toys - eg they don't say to the boys 'why do you want to wear that dress, here is a cowboy outfit' - but the reinforcement process seems to be much more subtle.

I think it's amazing how different each child is (irrespective of sex). I look after twin boys and they are very different in attitude...actions and emotions.

But obviously both their nature and nurture have been very similar.

Hovely, I'm sure I remember from somewhere (don't ask me where, brain not engaged at the mo) that babies do know which gender adults are. Smell, maybe? Will have to ask my psychologist friend. Clearly would be an evolutionary advantage to know which adult can produce milk, for instance. Still doesn't answer the question whether babies know they are gendered themselves, but will ask the same friend. Or Babylab at Birkbeck might know.

Thinking about this more, prefernot's original statements re talking and eating certainly hold true in my family, comparing me/my sisters to our sons.

I think I am more male-brained than female-brained - fairly sure that isn't nuture because my Mum is not that way at all .

Watching my 3 grow up I am convinced there are more typical "boy" behaviours and more typical "girl" behaviours - obviously with lots of overlaps in individuals.

that should be nurture not nuture

Good point hovely! I'll put that one to dp ...

i have b/g twins and can say that up until school age there is nothing drastically different IME. its when they get to school that its a fight to steer them away from traditional male and female concepts. ie. mummies stay home and cook ( what the feck?) no dear daddies do that cos i tell 'im too

Have to say I'm rather skeptical on the nature component. I do think that there are perhaps some biological predispositons (i.e the role of male and female hormones). But, I think they are given more credit than they are due. I think girls can be just as rough and boisterous. And I also think that nurture begins to play a role when the babies are very young.

I do not believe boys are born better equiped to excel in math and science.

This argument will rage forever! I have one DD & 3 DSs. DD was very um forthright? as a young child- plenty of tantrums, very active. Not interested in dolls nor in sitting quietly (used to make me laugh when people mentioned girls "sitting quietly" because mine never did), but then she wasn't interested in cars either. She liked mess- playdo, paint & stuff.

DS1 was very quiet & would just sit. He loved cars & would line them up.

DS2 is what people would refer to as a "real boy". Lots of noise & action, crashing cars, shooting- but then he has ADHD!! On the eating front he was the ONLY one of my kids to enjoy eating & not gag on the lumps!

DS3 was quiet & snuggly. Likes to dress up & was the perfect model for DD to dress ( a live doll). Liked lego & cars but also dolls & sitting quietly!

Four kids & four completely different personalities. One 'typical boy", one almost typical boy (DD) & 2 neither. I still hold that the biggest reinforcer of sex stereotypes is other kids.