Good old fashioned smacking

[heepie]

I don't believe it did me any harm and I do wonder why the previous generation, ie mine, was so much better behavied than the current, ie my kids. I find the softly softly, ignore bad reward good behaviour does not work with a strong willed child and find myself more and more thinking what was wrong with a good old smack? Peeing on the floor right in front of you with a big smile on the face surely warrants more than the removal of a star on the reward chart? And whacking little brother over the head with a heavy object? Not eating something very nice and edible that I have slaved over in the kitchen? Why must we never tell our children to eat what is in front of them when I wasn't allowed to leave the table until I was finished? I don't have an eating disorder. I think it's time I through all the modern how to bring up children books out of the window and remember how it was done when I was a child? Anyone else feel this way?

I think the tide is, or has, definitively turned against smacking as a discipline technique. The law will probably follow in time. Attitudes usually change well before the law follows.

I agree with everything you say Greeny except that you don't acknowledge that most of the mums on here who do condone smacking, are also probably good and loving mothers, in ways that probably hugely outway the negative impact of the occasional smack. (I'm presuming they're not beating them)

I don't think you ackonwledge the harm your persistent use of the word abuse causes, thereby suggesting these parents are abusers. Smacking is an abusive act, but in most families this would be so outweighed by all the positive stuff, it wouldn't equate to an abusive enbironment.

Stick by your guns on smacking, I think you're right, but at the same time consider the emotions of the people on the other side, they may be wrong on this issue, but I'm sure they love their children just as much as you, and to be labelled an abuser of your own child would cut very deep into any mother. Please consider that.

Spread the love around, that'll get them onside.

I understand everything you say in your post FM, and I have given much thought to the effect of calling someone abusive for smacking in what they think is a loving and considered context. I don't use the word lightly at all.

However on balance I feel that some principles are worth upsetting people over, if necessary. Hitting a child does come under the definition of abuse that has been provided by the NSPCC. In fact it is illogical to say that a child can be hit in a non-abusive way. Even the law currently recognises ALL smacking (not just that which leaves a mark) as assault - the debate is over whether the statutory defence of "reasonable chastisement" should be allowed to remain.

I've no doubt that many of the pro-smacking contingent on MN are loving and good parents in their own terms. However 50 years ago a man who thrashed his son with a rattan cane for insolence would also have been widely considered a loving and responsible father. The natural progress of child protection legislation - children being the last people in our society to acquire the basic right not to be struck - is FAR too important to be hindered by a misguided wish to protect the feelings of those who believe that hitting their children is acceptable.

If people find it shocking and hurtful to be told that what they are doing is abuse - well, I'm afraid I think that's a good thing. Hitting children is shocking.

Speccy, thats a really good question! -

"Heepie - in your world, if a bloke gives his wife a 'smack' as opposed to 'hitting' her, is that ok?"

I know, I know Greeny, I agree with about smacking, and don't think it can really be logically argued that it's not an abusive act.

But although it may logically come under that defintion, there is a world of differnce betweem a slap on the hand and someone who reguarly beats their child.

Thay are on the same spectrum of 'physical absuse' in a logical sense, but even to those who are anti smacking the fundemental differenec in reality must be stark.

I just think that to then label poele who may do the former, in another wise very loving family context, in the same category as the latter, is deeply deelply hurtful.

I too think it's wrong to smack, and think you do a great job in arguing why, but just think sometimes you unneccessarily (albeit logically) cause deep anguish to loving mothers.

That's all.

The only point we seem to disagree on FM is that I don't think I am unnecessarily causing deep anguish. If they are loving mothers, and they are hitting their children - and not just hitting them but prepared to argue calmly in favour of hitting them, and fully intending to hit them again when the right circumstances occur - then IMO they bloody well should be feeling deep anguish. It's violence. It's got to be stopped.

Do you think these children should be removed from their parents?

Heepie - do you really not realise the long term consequences of what your parents did to you?

I feel very sorry for you if this is the case.

Mog: are you being sarcastic?

No it's genuine. I want to know what is the outcome of criminalising parents.

I think that 'abuse' and 'abuser' suggest inflicting deep, long lasting irreparable damage onto a child.

I think that logically a slap on the hand/leg can be defined as an abusive act, but I don't necessarily think that every smacked child will be deeply and irreparbly damged. I think the impliactions of the term 'abuse' actually suggest something much more sinister and equate the occasional slapped hand with systematic beating.

And whilst I think people should be eduacted to see why smacking is fundementally wrong, I do think it is unecessary (however logical) to lump them together with poeple who fit our more stereotypical view of abusers.

I presume you want these poeple to stop smacking? I think then you should climb down just a little from your perfectly logical balck and white position you firmly cling too, and consider whether the labelling and condeming of peole will bring about change or just alienate them?

Okay my feeling is that although this is something i feel v. strongly about, i am not sure that the law is the right way of dealing with the problem. Laws need thre threat of punishment to enforce them and what is the appropiate punishment to the parent that does not harm the child.

heepie, with regards to your original post, i started off by agreeing with you, i think that in certain circumstances a CONTROLLED smack, one which makes a point rather than hurting is a good way in which to discipline a child who is being particularly naughty. However you went on to say this :Peeing on the floor right in front of you with a big smile on the face surely warrants more than the removal of a star on the reward chart? And whacking little brother over the head with a heavy object? Not eating something very nice and edible that I have slaved over in the kitchen? I certainly don't think that any of those things warrant physical punishment.

I have on occaision smacked my DD2 as she thinks it is hysterical to double barrel kick me in the stomach when im changing her bum (she is just 2 at the end of the month), it totally doesnt work though as she just sees it as part of the game and my tap on her bum has been greeted with indifference, laughter and "more more" so its not very effective i suppose. I have to say that in an ideal world i dont agree with smacking and hope that i wont go on to smack DD2. I have smacked DD1 (she is 17 now and big enough to smack me back if she should so chose) as she has been a particularly trying teenager and whenever i have smacked her it has been due to the red mist descending and me losing it out of sheer exasperation, i wont go into it here but she really really pushes me - i dont actually think landing one on her has ever helped to be honest, although i think she will be the first to admit she bloody deserved it! I am not excusing that, i dont think i did the right thing but i do wonder if i had been stricter with her and more "controlled" in my discipline then it wouldnt have come to that (not very proud mummy emoticon)

By noddyholder on Tue 03-Jul-07 11:20:21
My mum was a smacker and I can't tell you the confusion of hating someone that you love so much that hitting invokes.I am appalled that anyone considers it acceptable in any form.Do you know that when you are doing it your LO's minds are in turmoil and confusion because the person they love and trust the most is hurting them and usually for something minor.The hand in the fire /plug socket argument is a cop out and we all know it.

........why is the plug socket/fire arguement a cop out? i have never hit my child except when she has done something dangerous and it was an immidiate reaction to stop her from being far more injured by something else......how would that make it a cop out as i have never hit any other time?

Right she did get a smack for hitting her brother, for not eating, she got to stay at the table until I was happy she'd had a decent amount (I don't hit her for not eating but I want to because it is so frustrating) for peeing on the floor she did get a sticker removed from her reward chart which had no impact whatsoever and left me wondering what was the point and what, somewhere between removing a sticker and a smack, would be more likely to encourage her to pee in the toilet instead. She is fully toilet trained and this was no accident. I had had a bad morning and was wondering why on earth it is so bad to give a little smack when they cross the line, leave kids at the table until they've had their food etc, etc, like in my childhood. I never said I was all for smacking for anything and everything, I just think we've all been sucked in by the notion that being beautiful earth mothers is the best thing for our kids. And whoever thinks I am feeling deep anguish after a few mothers have disagreed with my methods is very mistaken.

hmmm, ive just re read my post - when i say i landed one on my DD, i do mean i smacked or slapped her, I actually think i shouldnt have done so and im not proud of myself at all, totally regetted it at the time and do now, but i just wanted to make the point that i didnt land one on her as in punch her or anything like that. I think i was just making the point that, with the best will in the world it is very easy to sit and say i will Never smack my child, because i feel exactly the same about DD2(nearly 2 and the light of my life)and dont intend on using physical punishment (like i say, ive tried the tap on the bottom technique, she thinks its funny as i dont do it very hard so i wont do it anymore simply because it doesnt work).

well done all those mums who have broken the cycle of violence and who don't smack.

i have grown up children as well as little ones and have worked as a nanny too. i have never had to smack a child for sticking fingers in a socket, etc. and did not and still do not smack when they are behaving badly.

looking after children can be exhausting and i do wonder if pro-smackers are sometimes just being lazy - it takes so much more effort to have to remove a child/ consider your own response/ talk to them about it/ put them in their room for time-out. so yes, i do think that parents who do not smack are better parents.

you have to accept that sooner or later you will not have control over your children and hope that by providing a good example they will not turn out too bad.

the act of smacking in itself is disgusting and shocking and that in itself is a good enough reason to not do it.

My DD (3.10) got a smack at the weekend. It was on the bottom and she got several warnings. We were at a swing park. We had been there a while. I told her that we'd be going shortly. She said I want to go on this and that. I said that was fine but then we were going. On the last swing she was playing on, she had a good swing and then I said that it was time to leave and catch up with Daddy and DS. She would not come. She had a doosy. Gripped onto the swing and started screaming and kicking her legs. She is usually very compliant. I prised her fingers from the swing and physically carried her out the swing park as she continued to scream and kick. I told her that she was being very naughty and that it made no difference as we were still leaving so she could kick and scream all she wanted. I put her down and held her hand. She threw herself on the ground. Not wanting to drag her along the ground, I picked her up again and carried her. I put her down on the ground again and repeated that we were going and that was that. I remained calm all through this. I tried walking holding her hand again and she really lost it and bit me in sheer temper through my jumper. I still remained calm but at this point she got one smack on her bottom. Of course she howled and wailed in upset but she stopped physically trying to get her way and walked the rest of the way to the car holding my hand.

She sniffed and girned in the car for about 5 minutes and then very remorsefully said "I'm sorry mum for being naughty".

Does this make me a bad parent? Then I hold my hand up and plead guilty.

I too would like to know if people such as me should have their children taken away to face greater threats of child abuse in some of our social care establishments.

heepie, if you seriously want to hit your two year old because she hasn't eaten something because you have slaved on it - then I would call that having an issue.
you need some support if that is how you feel

Also, just got me wondering. Has anyone considered that certain physical actions are natural? I mean they are built into our make up through years of evolution. I have never, ever, ever bitten my children so where did my DD learn that one from - it's because it's innate. Another time when they were both in the bath together and one was taking all the toys they ended up having a spat. Not actually hitting each other but sitting at opposite ends of the bath baring their teeth like animals.

It is the basic instinct of all animal life to defend itself. Yes we are humans and our mental processes allow us to transcend most things because we know that it is not nice or wrong.
I don't mean to trivialise this at all. I would never beat or hit my children but yes I believe a smack when all else fails is justified.

Went on a child protection course recently and we were asked as a group if any of us hadn't smacked our children. Out of about 60 people 4 people said they had never smacked their children!

I was one of them but it's a method I choose not to use for my children as I don't believe it achieves anything. However I don't believe in judging other parents on their choice of discipline, I don't believe I am a "better" parent for not smacking IYSWIM

Voluptua - of course that's right - it is our responsibility as parents to teach our children the acceptable rules of human conduct and civilisation, and to learn to control their primitive urges - and that includes hitting each other which imo is uncivilised and just plain wrong. whoever does it

voluptua - yes, my children have also done biting, headbutting, etc and hadn't seen it anywhere so i think it must be innate.
like harpsi says we need to try and control primitive urges.

Does a thread like this happen periodically just to make sure all the bases are covered for a few months?

We use smacking as part of wider discipline, and I have no shame about it, nor do I feel particularly brave and needing to 'admit' to it. It is legal and in our house, it's effective in it's place.

I imagine the reason parents who do smack are reluctant to own that on somewhere like MN is that there are a certain amount of people here who will respond to that with lots of emotive posts about 'thumping' and lots of name-calling. There's not an awful lot of point in bringing the topic up mostly, because it just generates an awful lot of heat and not much light in a setting like this.

I agree with Suebaroo (btw love the name) a thread like this is not likely to achieve anything.

After going on this child protection course, whiole it was very informative and exceptionally well run, I left with a niggling worry about the nanny state we are slowly becoming where we can't make decisions about our own children without others judging us.

Yes, because I guarantee that if this is made illegal, in a few years time the NSPCC and certain govt. bods will start saying its abusive to shout at children. And it is in certain contexts. But most of us lose our rag from time to time and our children come to no harm. It's this criminalising occasional parental mistakes which worries me.
I think smacking will die out as an outmoded method of parenting. I think some parents, feeling insecure about their own parenting, like to jump on this bandwagon. I guarantee you will all be making mistakes. there is no such thing as a parent who always gets it right.