Another child bit my baby in playgroup... Advice please!

[littletree]

I've finally gotten around to bringing my nearly one year old to a playgroup. It was all going swimmingly until the end when they brought out bikes and scooters for the little ones to push around/ride. My little guy was sitting on a horsey and a little boy who was 3 came along smiling and pinched my sons cheek rather hard. I took his hand away and said that wasn't nice and stroked my babys cheek and said 'gently'. The other boy then copied me and stroked my son. No harm done. About 15 minutes later he charged over to my son and I thought was nuzzling my son playfully. But then I noticed to my horror that his jaws were clamped on his shoulder in a bite. I was horrified and yanked my boy away. There was a general uproar and much sympathy from the other mums and the boy's mum finally came over and reprimanded him. I understand that this little boy is something of a bully and it was absolutely awful watching my baby get hurt like that. There is no violence in my home and I don't want him learning these things from other children. Help! Is this just a fact of life that I will have to accept? What should I do when this happens? Any advice and shared experiences would be greatly appreciated.

well no-one's going to disagree with that aloha! I wasn't thinking so much about my situation to be honest (just thought I ought to stick to using myself as an example). but way down the thread hmb wrote the same- that she found it impossible to stop her son's attacks or predict when they were going to happen. And I know that I've "known" hmb long enough to know that she isn't a "there there dear don't do that" type mother (and yes we do all know them and yes they are absolutely infuriating- my mother had a chair thrown at her by one delight from my antenatal class - squeaky voice "ooh that's not nice" from mum). But even people who do take it seriously and who do try to intervene can;t always stop it happening- not even in an NT child- and I have seen one particular friend REALLY struggle with this- and I coudn't for the life of me think how she could change the way she was dealing with it. And boy her son was fast..... (I was faster though and whipped ds2 out of the way as he struck).

I'm sure children can be very upset by this - and my friends twins- were very scared of their biting cousin- the boy mentioned above. But I think unless you have come across a very difficult and very entrenched behaviour in your child you don't realise how difficult it can be to stop.

Acutally ds1 is very compliant luckily- and wary of other kids- most of his problem behaviours involve damaging himself rather than others, so luckily I haven't had too much exerience in this area- but I do know how difficult it can be to stop problem behaviours.

I'm not nice at all I'm a real old bag

I honestly couldn't detect when ds would strike, he was just too damn fast and unpredictable. I'd love to have been able to predict ! I still have the scar on my right boob where he once bit me, drawing blood, as I carried him down a flight of stairs. He didn't want me to do it! And how the hell I kept hold of him and didn't chuck him down the stairs is one of lifes great mysteries But take it from me, if I'd known he was going to do it, I'd have tried to stop him! Over-riding mother love I guess.

But he was impossible to read.

This thread turned out to be very apt this week. At my Mums and Tots group on Wednesday, a baby (about 10 months) was pushed off a sit on rocker by a 2 year old. The baby goes with his grandparents - he isn't walking yet. His grandma was sitting drinking coffee several feet away whil he was on the rocker. The little boy who pushed him is a boisterous little boy, no doubt about it, and he approached the baby and with no warning shoved him full in the face with his hand and pushed him on the floor so he banged his head.

What shocked me was the grandmother's response - she leapt up, spilling her coffee all over the floor, and screamed "you HORRIBLE little boy!" I actually thought she was going to smack the two year old. She picked up her grandson and then set about berating this toddler - really aggressively. The toddler's Mum went over, apologised, told her child off, then strapped him in the pushchair and took him home - explaining that he had to go home because he had hurt the baby. I can't see that she could have done anything else - she was very upset and embarrassed as the whole time she was bundling him up in his pushchair the grandma was going on and on in a loud voice about "what a nasty little boy...shouldn't be around other children" etc etc. She carried on in the same vein til playgroup ended.

I was far more shocked by the grandmas' OTT reaction (wish I had had the nerve to say something to her) than the actual incident. She should have been supervising her grandson more closely anyway, but the way she verbally attacked the 2 year old was quite shocking. If anyone had spoken to my child in that way (whatever he did) I would have been very upset.

It just made me think - what kind of reaction did she want from the toddler's Mum? I think she wanted him to be physically punished there and then. I also think, if asked, she would say he shouldn't be at a group like that, but he's just a normal, boisterous, occasionally aggressive 2 year old, with little thought to the consequences of his actions. He's not the devil incarnate and a psychopath in the making!

I know other people have been criticised on this thread for saying it's easier to have a victim than an agressor - but I honestly think it's true. That's not to say anyone wants their child to be hurt by another, but at least your child is in the right, so to speak.

Our 6 yr old son is just as bad, he actually goes out of his way to make sure he goes where we can't physically get to see him so he can bully other children, but he is repremanded when found out, but what can you do? keep the child in the house and not let them out? that's no good for the child or you, you'd both go stir crazy. Unfortunately it is a case of appologising to the child that is hurt and telling your child to say sorry. Publicaly shouting at a child doesn't do anyone any good.

just my opinion though.shock{}blush{}

stevensmum, with older children, I think you have more options at least - you can save some punishment for later - talk about it, take away treats and privileges etc but it must be hard to see your child doing bullying things when you are trying your best to stop them.

There's a boy in my sons class, aged 10 years who has developed a nasty, bullying streak. He picks on lots of children and is getting a reputation. My son has suffered his words and actions but luckily not too much. His parents seem ok - do lots for the school and help at cubs. I feel really sorry for them.

anyway, wanted to make another point about stopping toddlers from hitting/biting other children. When my oldest son hit, he often did so in the middle of friendly physical contact - perhaps he and a friend were having a tickling match, or hugging each other, or dancing around together avoiding monsters. Both children having a great time. Then suddenly the game tipped over the edge and my son would strike out - often part accidently. I could have avoided the situation by banning all play that involved any physical contact. It seemed to me that this was unnatural to do, and quite damaging too.

I do take the point that some children are lastingly upset by rough play, though. What to do then? I don't know. I will keep reading this thread and mulling it over.

When I had ds now 10 I was in a very close knit group of mums with babes the same age from when ours were born to when they were 3, two boys were very specific agressors, one biting other kids and one physically violent to his mother, able to throw her off balance.
We all discussed the problem together, the mums knew what was what and we all chose to agree a way to deal with it, take the biting childs arm, explain what he was doing was wrong and take him out of the room for 30 seconds and distract him. We were extremely vigilant, hard to implement this in a nursery but the nursery should deal with it better, prevention is always better.
I appreciate that some children do not operate in the same ways, but in the large, being vigilant and firm but calm gets the best results...

So a general consensus from a few posters on here is that as my dd is small and not handling rough and tumble play too well I should avoid playgroup situations. That's also been my decision although it makes me sad that as she's an only child with no close family nearby she won't get much chance to play with other kids. I live in a large, cramped council flat so it's also nice to be able to take her out somewhere with lots of toys and some indoor space to run around in. But I guess that's another issue.

However, great outrage is expressed a few times at the possibility that a more aggressive child should be excluded from a playgroup.

Any idea why this is? Is it because the aggressors are in the majority? That hasn't been my experience at playgroups, there have only ever been a few.

Ideally of course absolutely no child would be excluded and mums would co-operate in a friendly way and all our kids could enjoy these community places.

Jimjams, my brother is severely autistic, just 11 months older than me so I've grown up with knowing how hard it can be. In fact in my mums day it was awful and she still gets upset telling me how isolated she was and the struggles she had getting any kind of education for him. He's now permanently institutionalised as when my father died my mum could no longer cope. I just mention this now (have avoided it so far, though have always followed your posts with interest because of it) because I read Charlotte Moore and I couldn't help feeling either she copes much better with the situation she's in, or my memories are so bleak that a lot of what she says doesn't seem realistic. Our lives were often utter chaos.

I don't think that you should excluded from M & T groups. I remember how much I needed them when dd was small.

But I think the key issue is that you have to expect a bit of 'normal' rough and tumble from older children.

I have helped to run three M & T groups and everyone should be made welcome. But it is difficult to make them all things to all people. Parents with smaller children will, I think, tend to think that the older children are too boistrous.....I know that I did when my dd was smaller.

To a degree most children will push and shove and some will even hit and bite. And these are not always children from uncaring, can't be bothered parents. This is just part of life with a toddler. This is what I found with dd (who was generaly not violent) and later also found it with ds who could be on times.

With ds I would often find myself having to take him out of situations which were too much for him, and he could respond to those situations with bad behaviour. I'm afraid that if you find M & T groups to be too much for your dd at the moment you might have to do the same thing. Note that I am not saying that you should, or even that this is the right thing to do, but you might find that this is the best way of coping for the moment.

I would never brush away the seriouslness of a bite, and never did. But I'm afraid you will be looking for a long time before you find a playgroups where there is no 'violence' or bad behaviour, it comes with toddler teritory I'm afraid.

STF, I think there's probably a reluctance to exclude any child from a playgroup at such a young age, especially when maybe what they need is more exposure to those situations so they can be guided in their behaviour. Also, a lot of this kind of behaviour is very much a phase i.e. the child that is whacking everyone this week may well not be doing it next week. Not all playgroups are the same - some are complete bunfights and some are calmer. IME, ones that are spread through a few rooms are more difficult to supervise (after all, Mums go to them for a bit of R&R too, hence possible lack of supervision if they're talking). I understand your dd has been badly shaken by the incident but maybe it's a bit like getting straight back on the bike when you've fallen off i.e. it would be more of a mistake not to go back.

stf, have stayed out of this thread but don't want you to feel you are on your own with how you feel. tbh i would be gutted if my son was bitten, he never has been (he was scratched quite badly a year ago, was utterly traumatised, we saw the little boY 2-3 weeks later on the bus and ds recognised him and was v upset ).

ds has never bitten either and i would be equally gutted if he did.

i don't think you should stop going to playgroups- get a list for your area (do you have a childrens info service locally?) and work your way through them till you find one that suits you and your dd.

xxx

Haven't got time to read this whole thread, but when my firstborn was tiny she was often picked on by rough toddlers at mum & tots & I was outraged... of course, once she was one of the big 2 year olds it was her doing the shoving & me the baby mums were tutting about.

Just want to say, STF and Littltree, don't give up! Really aggressive kids are in a small minority and M&T groups vary hugely. NCT bumps and babes groups are specifically aimed at small ones IME and tend to be rather gentle affairs, and lots of babies go to the one I take ds to - in fact he often retreats to hang out with the babies if things get too boisterous for his tastes. The biting thing (though I have gone on and on about it ) was a one off, thankfully, and most of the kids are great. Yes, there are sporatics outbreaks of hostilities, but they are usually between to toddlers who are actually friends and 'know the rules' between themselves. I think you need the company and your baby will increasingly enjoy the toys, company and chance to stretch her legs. Monster mums and babies are pretty rare things, and yes, if your child is sensitive you may need to supervise her a little more closely, but I think the benefits of a group for you and your dd will outweigh the difficulties.

BTW the reference to 'monster babies' was very much tongue in cheek -I don't really think any babies are monsters. Honest!

STF I'm not saying you "should" avoid M and T groups, any more than I "should". It's just that there are certain places I "have" to avoid unless I want everyone to have a really miserable time. I think aloha's advice is sound actually- stick to groups that will suit you and your child. They may change as she grows as well.

Anyway an example. When I was a 5 year old I LOVED Lord Mayors day. loved the floats - it was an annual family institution. Today was Lord Mayors Day. I decided we should go Much to dh's despair..... We knew there was no way ds1 would cope with standing on a bank in a crowd watching floats go by (lots of waiting for starters). So we went down after it had finished. All the floats had gone but there were some displays left including fleets of limos you could look inside (right up ds1's steet). A succesful day was had by all. I doubt you'll have to change your outings as much as we do to keep your dd happy, but you may have to avoid the most boisterous M and T's groups, or ones with lots of older children. When ds1 was a baby I went to one which had 2 completely separate rooms - toddler and babies and that worked well.

I'm sorry your life with your autistic brother was so bleak. Charlotte Moore's book was like reading about my life (I mean really like my life- it was like my diary- except her house is a lot nicer!), so I hope that ds2 does grow up recognising that (and am desperately hoping we don't end up with the 2 out of 3 that she has as well). Having said that there is the gentle sound of screaming reaching me - so had better go.

STF re- your mum's isolation I think the big difference these days is the internet. I only have one NT friend that I see regularly as mixing with NT's doesn't work all that well. But throught the internet I met a lot of autism friends. These people have kept me sane to be honest. I started joining support groups (internet based) a year before my son was dxed - there's no way I would have gone to a real life one without a dx, but it met that by the time he was dxed- it wasn't such a horror- I just became a fully paid up member of the group. Also means thatI talk (on the phone and via email) to people with autistic children every single day.

Without the internet I know I would have been very isolated and to be honest I don't know how I would have coped. My autism friends keep me sane, I hope I do the same for them. We rely on each other a lot.

Thanks aloha, unfortunately I don't have a lot of groups close by to where I live and as I don't drive trecking across London by bus is a bit of a nightmare. Dd hates buses! It'll work out though I expect.

So what age do you all think is right to go to a toddler group? Dd's knocking on 21 months which makes her a toddler rather than a baby.

Jimjams I think my mum had as much trouble getting a diagnosis for my brother as anything. And in her day the 'refrigerator mother' idea was more prevalent than it is today. I work as a film researcher for a medical film library and autism is one of my sections so I know getting diagnosis is also problematic these days, I'm not belittling that. I don't think my mum has actually ever got to know any other mums with autistic kids and my brother's now nearly 39!

This is for another thread really but I wonder how your ds2 copes with ds1? It had an enormous impact on me growing up with my brother in far more ways than I can list here and of course it should be another thread.

Sorry. I'm feeling pretty low today as dd's been very ill. There's so many feelings of inadequacy that go hand in hand with being a mum, can't stop her being hurt, can't stop her being in pain when ill. etc. etc. etc. Maybe I am over-protective.

I don't think it's a matter of the 'right' age, really. I think it's about finding the right group setting for your child. If the group doesn't work for you for whatever reason, then keep looking, it's not worth persevering with any setting that is stressful for either of you. It's meant to be a pleasant experience after all! Most groups are welcoming and understand that you want to be sure you're in the right place.

It works both ways. DS and I had been very happily going to a toddler group for nearly 2 years, when he just grew out of it. The group expanded and all of a sudden there were lots of babies and younger toddlers who needed a calmer environment. DS is quite boisterous, so after a couple of uncomfortable sessions I decided to knock it on the head and find some more suitable activities, which were at the right level for him and where he could just enjoy himself.

I meant to say, too, it doesn't need to be a 'free play' type toddler group. Something more structured like music groups, toddler gym etc can be just as social but are a better environment for some children.

I don't know about over-protective but I think it is commmon to over worry with your first. I did. I think second time round you kind of have more confidence that they'll be OK iyswim. Also I think that bigger children look terribly rough the first time round, but by the time you have a second you have a bigger one as well and you realise that they're just babies too. Also you're just used to the kind of flying around etc that goes with an elder child. I relaxed a lot with ds1 when I had ds2 as well.

WOuld be interested in that thread. IN fact will start it now (in behav and development).

I do think this is an area that is bound to polarise people depending on their child's personality, their own personality and situation. I remember feeling simultaneously tigerish and nonplussed when a toddler of about 18 months bit my defenseless four month old baby on the cheek while I was getting his twin out of the pram... I honestly felt a depth of maternal rage such as I'd never felt before and was not at all impressed by his mum's reaction, which seemed blase at best in the context of my ogreish wish to slap the child in question! We sorted it out over a couple of sessions as it became very clear to me that this mum was pretty thinly spread what with three under three to look out for. As my children grew and they and their little friends developed nasty habits of their own which seemed utterly unconnected to parental style and supervision levels I've become slightly more blase myself anyway. Working with families with children with special needs where there are major behaviour issues is a TOTAL eye-opener too. I would agree with those who've said that in many contexts being the parent of the aggressor is a really unenviable position. I think a few parents with children with behaviour problems become SO depressed about constantly having to intervene to prevent their child from harming others or doing dangerous things that they give up entirely. At other times maybe parents just don't have a clear idea of what level of supervision is appropriate and maybe that relates to their own parenting experiences or how they're feeling day to day? I totally accept that it's hard for the parents of children who are being targetted too though, especially if they have a sensitive child. This thread and the things everyone reports doing in terms of looking out for both their own child and the other children in the room makes me think of the African saying that it takes a whole village to raise a child ... I guess getting playgroup dynamics right so that everyone can be supported and accomodated is as good a place as any to start, maybe?

STF where do you live? You can google things like Monkey Music, Whippersnappers, Tumbletots and the NCT website which all have groups all over. I'm sure there is something. I live in SE London, which ain't fancy, but it's packed with things for small children to do.

just another suggestion SFT. Some baby and toddler playgroups are set up for childminders or nannies and their children only. Parents aren't invited. My sons have gone to ones like these and really enjoyed them. Hopefully all the carers at these groups are very alert, as childminding is their profession, so you won't get adults turning a blind eye to bad behaviour. Also, from what I gather, the childminders who go know each other well and have been going to the same group for years. They have agreed strategies in place for dealing with difficult behaviour. If you can afford it, perhaps you could find a childminder who could have your child for a day of week, for instance, and take your child to a group like this.

aloha, I'm in SE London too and I've found some nice structured groups at local libraries for a morning a week here and there but there's nothing as regular as the playgroup in our park which is every day 12-4pm so perfect for fitting around lunch / naps etc. I will check out the web for other structured groups though, thanks.

tigermoth, I think there's a group that's mostly got au pairs and kids they look after not far from me, maybe I'll check that out.

ScummyMummy, I know you're right and I know my dd will change character probably countless times as she gets older. I would never for a second think that children bite or don't bite entirely because of parenting styles. One of my closest friend's dd is 2.5 and just going through an aggressive phase after being very affectionate. I think you're right too that there could be a better etiquette of behaviour at playgroups in general, just to everyone tried to keep to the same rules even if it will inevitably sometimes fail. I only have 1 small dd and so I can only imagine how difficult it must be to manhandle 3 active toddlers at once and how important it is for mums of more than one to have playgroups to go to.

Jimjams, will check out your other thread now!

littletree I feel very bad that I've hijacked your thread without even meaning to. I wonder what you've made of all this?!

Awwww Marthamoo, I hope that mum goes back to the playgroup or finds a friendlier one
I'm afraid I would have stepped in if it was me (and it was me on more than one occasion) by calmly saying she'll scare the other children carrying on like this or something similar. And if she wanted to argue with me I'd take it outside. I've been that ostracised mum and I stuck it as long as I could but it's too stressful.

Sorry but I have to ask why is a nearly one year old at a playgroup?
If it is a mother and toddler group why was the baby left on a horse?
Most 3 year olds know better but by leaving a baby in a room with hyped up children you are asking for it really.
The mother of this boy should have stepped in before it got out of hand but I would not have left the baby in the room. In fact I don't leave my 10 month old in the same room as my 4 year old because he isn't a responsible, rational adult yet.