Another child bit my baby in playgroup... Advice please!

[littletree]

I've finally gotten around to bringing my nearly one year old to a playgroup. It was all going swimmingly until the end when they brought out bikes and scooters for the little ones to push around/ride. My little guy was sitting on a horsey and a little boy who was 3 came along smiling and pinched my sons cheek rather hard. I took his hand away and said that wasn't nice and stroked my babys cheek and said 'gently'. The other boy then copied me and stroked my son. No harm done. About 15 minutes later he charged over to my son and I thought was nuzzling my son playfully. But then I noticed to my horror that his jaws were clamped on his shoulder in a bite. I was horrified and yanked my boy away. There was a general uproar and much sympathy from the other mums and the boy's mum finally came over and reprimanded him. I understand that this little boy is something of a bully and it was absolutely awful watching my baby get hurt like that. There is no violence in my home and I don't want him learning these things from other children. Help! Is this just a fact of life that I will have to accept? What should I do when this happens? Any advice and shared experiences would be greatly appreciated.

STF, I think most of us agree that as much as possible parents should be aroudn to supervise their tots. We all know that left to their own devices most toddlers would kill eachother within 5 minutes, so should never be left alone for long. It's possible that you have been unlucky with your playgroup and it's full of irresponsible mums who don't care what their little thugs get up to. However, your daughter has hardly been the "victim of violence". I think most toddlers are fairly boisterous and uncivilised. I don't think your dd will get any lasting traumas. She is very young and still a baby. In a few months time, you might post on MN asking what to do when your dd bites you.......
I also think it's really important that you are quite calm about this. I think you are quite traumatised by this yourself and perhaps you are making too much of an issue ?

I am sorry if you feel offended. I think we all draw on our own experiences and perhaps we just haven't been around mums like the ones you describe? I know I haven't, but I do know the mums who follow their kids around everywhere in the playground and they irritate me. They are terrified their little child doesn't behave impeccably around others and end up sorting every little "situation" out for them and make them apologise and say please until they are blue in the face. Let your kids roam free to a certain extent! Perhaps it's a cultural difference, but growing up in Sweden, most parents leave their kids ot sort out their own little squabbles to a much greater extent and Swedish children are not worse behaved than English. Sometimes, I think they are better behaved, because most attend nurseries and are socialised and used to interacting in groups from a very early stage.

I do think I changed with ds2. DS1 didn't crawl until 13 months and didn't walk until 17 months, which meant he was still wobbly when his peers were able to charge round like lunatics. he quite frequently ended up at the bottom on the pile. Which meant I had to superivise HIM very closely- I couldn't expect 1 year olds to understand that he was easy to push over. I do think if you have a very gentle child who is going to be traumatised by being pushed over, or is more vulnerable to being hurt then you have as much reposnsibility to supervise them as the mother of a biter has to supervise the biter.

When ds2 was born he was used to being around bigger children right from the beginning, so although he was on the late side to crawl and walk (11 months and 15 months) he was used to being in the centre of a whirling mass of children.

I STILL have to supervise ds1 - now 5 very closely- I supervise him much more closely than my 2 year old- and not because I'm worried about him hurting others - his pinching lasted a matter of weeks- but because he is more at risk of being hurt than other children. IN the park I tend to keep much closer to him than ds2. Likewise when ds2 is in a room of autistic or learning disabled children-0 as he frequnetly is- then I watch him very closely- far more closely than when he is in a room of 2 year olds. In other words I think its more my responsibility to protect my children than to reply on other mothers to watch theirs.

And once again. However closely you watch a child who hurts- you cannot prevent it happening all the time- ime not even 50% of the time. And this wasn't me being useless- I was told the same by his nursery- and he full time one to one supervision.

You also do have to choose where you go carefully. I don't take ds1 anywhere crowded. Which means we don't go to soft play, we don't go to big parks, we don't go to theme parks etc. He can't handle it or the other children, and I can hardly expect the whole world to stop for him. So if a playgroup happens to be too boisterous then go somewhere else. I chose the toddler group I went to precisely because it was small and therefore I could give both my children the supervision they needed- as ds1 needs a far higher level than most children- to keep himself safe.

fairyymum just to say I think children can be the victim of violence when it is the same child that targets them time and again it is a form of bukllying behaviour and if not addressed by parents or treated as a joke will continue and lead to trouble later on it also means that the child on the receiving end has their confidence shattered and may think there is something wrong with them- Speaking from personal experience an y parent who knows their child is a biter ,hitter,bully should be prepared to monitior that child or not take them to play groups where they can cause distress - my dd enoyed going to play gouop then one boy decided to keep hitting her at every opportunity - I was then in th position of what do I do in the end dd screamed at him and I almost came to blows with the mother(and Iam anti-violence as some of you know) (foul mouthed woman who thought hre little angel could do no wrong- ) we left the play group and found out later that theyhad been asked to leave cos his behaviour carried on - ok off the soap box now but I think parental attitude makes adifference and children can be hurt and affected by what happens to them as children.

I haven't read all of this thread but I've skimmed over it and think I agree with hmb, tigermoth and jimjams - it's impossible to supervise children all the time and even if you do you can't guarantee your child won't lash out/bite someone too quickly for you to do anything about it. Yes, we should be telling our children off if they do it but they do usually grow out of it: you rarely meet teenagers who bite! I think if the other parent isn't there it's ok to tell the biter off and give the bitten child some attention. You can't guarantee your child will never be bitten or hit by another child though, these things happen and while they're not pleasant it's rarely serious.

I was convinced my baby ds1 would never grow up to be a rough and tumble toddler like the ones I saw. He was such a smiley, happy baby...

I agree with you if we are talking about older children, but not 2 or 3 year-olds. I don't think they are sophisticated enough to target certain children and bully them. They are not strategic at all. It's this age when you start to teach them empathy and sympathy for others. Some develop these feelings quicker than others. It's really important that children this age are not labelled as thugs and trouble at an early age, that's why I think you have to be careful when telling them off. If a child is shouted at in front of the whole playgroup I think it's quite bad. A child who is constantly told they are trouble, is more likely to play up to this image IMO. Also, for some children it might be a good way of getting attention, so perhaps playing these incidents down isn't so bad? Of course parental attitudes affect children, but IMO it works both ways. If my DS showed me a bitemark he aquired in nursery, I don't make a big deal. If he came home from nursery without marks and scratches once in a while, I would be more worried. In our nursery, the teachers don't actually tell us which child bit our child, because they know some parents are so over-the-top with their reactions their little angel is bitten. Children are supposed to have a few bitemarks on their chins I think. I never interfere in the playground either unless there is an age-difference or one of the tots have a weapon like a stick or something. I am frequently forced to interfere when other mums run over to negotiate. Why can't they leave them to it? I do go to Saturday playgroup and there is a little boy there who does hit and bite the other children more than what's normal IMO. I don't expect his mum to see everything. She needs a break too poor thing, but it's the responsiblity of all mums to supervise a bit extra when this kid is around I think.

I think boys take a long time to stop enjoying rough and tumble play (do they ever?) My cousin's 9 and 7 year old visited a while ago and charged aruond the house stopping every now and then to "fight". The cutest thing was watching ds2 who was about 20 months at the time trying to keep up with them and every time they crashed to the floor to fight he lay next to them kicking his legs in the air......

gothicmania- I really don't think you can describe 2 year olds as bullies. They don't have the theory of mind to be bullies for starters. If you're going to bully you have to undersatand that other people have different thoughts and feelings than you- and 2 year olds don't.

SOme 2 year olds do have dodgy parents- and that's not necessarily going to help stop pushing etc/other thugish toddler behaviour, but some biters, pushers, hitters have wonderful parents. The equation isn't always simple. Partly depends on why the child is hurting. If they are biting to get toys then if they have enough understanding- its fairly easy to teach them more appropriate behaviour- if they are biting for sensory reasons (and even some NT children do that) it is much much harder to stop. I've never managed to redirect a sensory behaviour to something more appropriate. Never and I have tried in all sorts of areas. Likewise if they lash out through frustration that can be very difficult to stop - and you may need for the child's language or communication skills to develop - as that is when frustration tends to diminish. And I am talking NT kids here again. 2 years olds differ hugely in their ability to communicate. We did manage to redirect ds1's frsutration - he now hits himself rather than others. Used to hate it- now I think its preferable. Am sure he's going to fracture his chin some time though.....

jimjams is a 2 year old can target one particular child who is the quietist then i think the possibillity for that child to be a bully is definitly there otherwse their behaviour would be the same to all children all of the time

I agree about not intervening FariyMum. My aunt had 4 children very close in age and she rarely intervened. Just told them "I don't want to know- go and sort it out yourselves" and her children always got on well- never tried to outdo each other- as adults are all still very close. That ws also the approach my grandmother took with her 6- and they are all very close as well.

Another aunt with 2 children intervened all the time- and her children spent the whole of their childhood trying to get it other in trouble. Now as adults they are beginning to get on better but as children they literally hated each other.

More likely to be the response they get- or because the child is smaller. it's not bullying in the sense that they think "hmm I am going to make this child cry and be mean to this child". 2 year olds just aren't capable of thinking like that. They think "I'm OK so what's the problem".

When ds1 was pinching children earlier this year (which was rare it was mainly adults) it was noticeable that he only pinched at nursery and not at school. I'm sure that's because the children were smaller- and because he is wary of children the same size/bigger than him. He blanks children generally. Unless we give him a command like "give bethany a kiss" he won't pay any attention - even if bethany is trying to cuddle him. He was not a bully though because he was pinching smaller children. He was pinching to see them scream so he could look inside their mouths. He has no idea that them screaming means that they have been hurt. He doesn't hurt so he doesn't undertand that they do. He just understands "If I pinch I get an interesting response". Also if a child is doing it in full view of adults- which you will find that 2 year olds do then I think you would be hard pushed to define it as bullying. It will be being done for response.

If you want to stop undesirable behaviour it is very important to understand the reasons behind it and not just apply adult values to it. Children aren't adults and don't understand a lot of things we take for granted (such as theory of mind). If you don't have thepry of mind it is impossible to have any sort of sophisticated social interaction- including bullying.

Of course, a 2 year-old is not a bully. They don't have the mental capacity to understand their own behaviour or how their behaviour affects others. It's not me saying this. Ask any expert on children!
Can you see other reasons why a child seems to "target" another child? Is this child playing with a toy he wants? Does he think the reaction he gets or doesn't get from this child is different from someone who hits back and he is curious? Is it the reaction from the mum who is perhaps more protective knowing her child is not going to fight back? If the child is smaller, perhaps the 2 year-old is curious about babies? I think a 2 year-old is much more likely to bite or pinch another child to see what happens, rather than thinking he wants to hurt the child or make the child feel bad. I don't think they have yet developed the ability to understand that other people hurt in the same way they do. I think perhaps if you understood more how the mind of a 2 year-old works, you might see this all in a different light?

I guess we will all have differing views on this because our children all act differently. If your child doesnt hit or bite other children then you are bound to be upset when a child does it to yours, however, if your child does bite and is prone to hurting others again you will maybe again take a different view to this.

I am not a perfect mum by any means but I have three kids and like I said before not one has bitten any child outside of the house. I have taken a hard stand when they were little and I do think that makes a big difference.

I personally believe that all children will react to being told in different ways. If you have taken the softly lets explain approach and your child is still doing it, well then maybe you need to toughen up. Similarly if you are being tough about it and your child still does it, maybe another tact is needed. Have to say that when my friends have asked what to do over kids of theirs that have bitten and I have suggested, as a last resort, bite back, it has worked for every one of them. Maybe not first time but definitely after the second.

My views obviously are my own and I understand that there will be lots that disagree with me but I respect that everyone has their own views.

Having worked in both my daughters nurseries when they were younger I can tell you that a 2.5-3 year old child is fully capable of picking up on the "easy target", the child that is quiet or wont hit back or is maybe smaller. I wouldnt class it as bullying purely because as this age this child doesnt know what bullying means.

Fairymum I find your reactions with regard to bitemarks quite staggering, particularly as a bad bite can leave a scar.

There comes an age where you child has to learn to stick up for themselves and not run for parental guidance everytime another child hurts them, however, with my child as young as 2-3 (as we are discussing here) I do think its my priorty to protect them from other children hurting them.

I do not think I have said they are merely that they display signs of this behaviour - children learn from example and from their parents if they do not intervene then the child thinks it is acceptable and the behaviour continues if the adults treat it as boys being boys etc. it also makes excuses and allows the behaviour to continue- I can understand taht a child may hit bite etc. and if teh parents are aware and dealing with the situation no problems it when it is left an dbecomes worse that it is unfair to everyone - the little boy I was speaking about has now been banned from all playgroups and preschools in the area if something had been done 2 years ago the perhaps he and his mum would not be in this position now.

I agree with 3girls mums lastpost

But what if you child is doing it for sensory reasons 3 girlsmum? What if your child doesn't learn by example gothicmania (we are paying over 40 quid a week for someone to spend 3 hours with my son specifically to try and teach him to copy- ie to make it possible for him to learn by example- he's never learned a thing by example).

I do agree with you 3girlsmum that children will pick on smaller children etc and that it is not bullying- in this case the best (and sometimes only) apporach is prevention. if a particular child is always being picked on then my son's nursery separates them. In a playgroup it is harder but both parents need to be wise to it- including the child who is vulnerable. When ds1 was small and less mobile than his peers- I would pick him up if he was in danger.

I'm not sure that biting is aways easily fixable though. My friend has tried everything- all sorts of approaches- positive praise, getting angry, explaining, shouting, even biting back and has had specialist intervention as well. He's been biting for well over a year now- and no-one has been able to produce a strategy that works for him. Personally I think he's biting for sensory reasons, and as I said before those behaviours are extremely difficult to stop (he has not diagnosis by the way- he's not "known" special needs).

jimjams sorry if I ahve offended you I was speaking about the case I know of and there was no other behaviour problems adn no diagnosis - I think were there are behaviour issues then help and support should be avaiable I work with students who have learning disabilities and it can be hard to find the key to their learning potential. I am sure parents if they knw of a problem orissue with a child help out more adn are patient rather tahn just labelling that child tho ignorance

NO you didn't offend me- just pointing out its not always simple. I think the thing that I disagree with on this thread is the assumption that its always easy to fix (and I'm talking about normal kids here). Sometimes it is a behaviour that can be easily erradicated- in our case we stopped children being pinched in the main within 2 weeks. I t was easy for us to fix- and our son responded well to the strategies we put in place. But I know its not always the case- and sometimes I have seen friends struggle to stop thier children biting and biting and biting. And they have done everything, and they have tried every strategy and they do intervene and they do go home and feel terrible. I'm disagreeing with the assumption that a child with a biting problem is always the product of poor parenting. It's just not like that. And I am talking about normal children here. In my view a persistant biter whether normal or SN may be doing it for sensory reasons- and that is incredibly diffciult to put a halt to.

I think I must live in a different area to you where the children have different teeth. The children I have come across don't leave lasting bitemarks. Well, it lasts for a little while, but it hardly scars you for life. Of course, you will intervene if another child gets hurt. Biting should of course be dealt with, but it is still going to happen. I think if you are a mother of a biter, then it could take you a long time to stop the child from biting. I don't think it's a case of just biting your child back. I can't believe people do that, but this is England I guess. It's acceptable to smack and bite your child to teach him it's wrong to do. How bizzarre. I think if you are a mother of a child who only bites for a short while or doesn't bite at all, then don't put it down to good parenting. It's too smug. In a few years, it could be your child who is sent home from school from bullying another pupil.

yes i agree with you there - it must be very hard for the parents and like you I would think if continuous and nothing seems to work then it is sensory and the action may well have acquired a meaning to the child that is different to societies one I would not have aproblem withtah as aparent so long as I could explain to dd why something happens it is ok adn we can deal with it

But most parents of NT children haven't even heard of sensory problems... So they're not going to understand why their child is biting. They're just going to be baffled- and if they read this thread think they were a crap parent or the parent of an evil monster.

I think the reasons for biting if a child is 2 are always going to be a bit odd. 2 year olds are antisocial- they have a long way to go before they are 18.

Anyway with baby number 3 we are hoping for a girl who talks at 12 months, doesn't need speech therapy and sits neatly colouring in. Not sure I'd know what to do with her though. We are gearing up for another lunatic....

Good point I am living in my ideal world again- good luck with no.3 I am sure baby will be lovely - if my dd sat quietly colouring at home I would be in shock and worry about it !!

Oh Jimjams you are pregnant too. When are you due? I haven't been here much lately, but due next month with my third.
We are crazy to do it again. We should know better at our age! Hope you are doing well!!

It's so weird how communications get so horribly misinterpreted on mumsnet. Really quite disorientating. And there's a lot of unnecessary defensiveness. hmb's comment about 'some of the posters on here' thinking biting children 'should be excluded' from playgroups. Well in actual fact it works the other way and it seems from this thread and another thread a month or so ago on the same subject that it is the mothers of the kids who get hurt who end up excluded because they decide not to go back. Jimjams, parents of biting kids reading this thread would not think 'they were a crap parent or the parent of an evil monster' because the majority of posts here are saying that biting / pushing etc. is part of normal development and is not possible to entirely eradicate. Which is clearly true.

The only points I've tried to make at all are that having a child who gets hurt by another child in a playgroup can upset them beyond their having a 5 minute scream. I know that from experience with my dd and from things other people have said, what's upsetting to me is that that side of things doesn't get taken seriously. And surely it can be taken seriously without other mums getting defensive and seeing this issue as an attack on their parenting? Strangely it seems to be taken more seriously that mums of kids who bite feel awful about it rather than mums of kids who are bitten feeling awful. Kind of hard to get my head around.

Again, sorry for any offense I've given to anyone. I am far from a perfect mum myself, and yes I may well be posting on here in a year asking what should I do with my biting dd.

When DS1 on his rare occasion, did bite someone I took it VERY seriously! He was removed from the situation and I made a HUGE fuss of the child bitten - which is what happens in a nursery setting. After spending time with the hurt child, I would then turn my attention to DS.
I don't believe in biting back personally - its a bit like "don't hit your brother" whilst smacking the child!

When my kids were bitten/hit/pushed over, they would generally cry for a while then go off and play (staying clear of the child who hurt them) so I haven't any suggestions for you reg: your DD.

Although I'm not saying biting/hitting is acceptable by any means, I do accept it happens when you get a group of children together (bit like bullying at school - would be very wary of a school who proclaims it NEVER happens - it does!!) but I do expect a parent to discipline their child if they've hit/bitten someone and I get very annoyed if they don't!

After all this, DD2 has been bitten at nursery this morning by a 3yo (she's 4.5). Fortunately, she's quite "mouthy!" and shouted at him to stop

Also wanted to say, when DD2 was a toddler, there was a lad same age who constantly bit/hit/pushed over DD. 18 months later DD went off to nursery and I started my job there. One day this lad walked into my room - and allocated to me! He was the softest/well-behaved and delightful child I ever met