To those parents who choose to never say no.

[00100001]

You hear of people raising their children in this way " I never say the word "no" to my child" or similar.

Why are you using this method? What are you hoping to achieve? How do you deal with other adults that say "no" to your child?

I'm not criticising, genuinely curious.

AtSea1979
How?

I am very much in the camp of not over-using the word no as ime it tends to lose impact if used constantly. I also enjoy discussing and explaining things.

However, committing yourself to never let them hear the word "no" would mean that I would have had to create a whole world where everything was safe and predictable and there was always time to discuss and distract. We would have missed out on a lot of fun that way.

I could not have taken them travelling abroad on public transport or sailing or fishing or swimming in the sea, if they were incapable of responding to a short quick command; it would not have been safe. We could certainly not have spent summers holidaying with family who have partly different rules from ours. They would have missed out on a lot of the fun exciting childhood I have been able to give them.

I would respectfully submit that an older child who never needs to be told no "because he is not the sort of child" that would ever ask a question that requires a no, is a child who spends his time anxiously second-guessing his parents because s/he believes he has done wrong if he ever asks for something he can't have. It would also, to me, suggest a certain lack of initiative: never coming up with an idea that doesn't fit into the family routine.

I would also not be happy if my children could not cope with different routines in different families (being told no by their friends' mum) or had to give up leisure activities like football or ballet because they thought even a mild telling off was a dreadful thing.

I also have no fear of authority, which can cause problems with people who think I should doff my cap at them

You are basically describing all 3 of my children and I must admit they did not lick it from the pavement either.

cory that's a very good point.
I, too, would be weary of a child who never dares doing something that might lead to a telling off, however mild.

I age to say, I have never tried to never say NO to my dcs. I have gone the route of never punishing or rewarding instead.
In a lot of way, it's actually quite similar in the end result. And yes it's working.
You do need to do a bit more thinking than your automatic first reaction (and I haven't succeeded all the time either!)

I think taking the not saying no thing too literally and actually never ever saying no is indeed unrealistic. I always think when people say they don't say no to there child they mean they don't say no on its own and without a reason. I try and avoid saying no with dd just because that was how I was brought up. That doesn't mean I never ever use the word no. If going on the underground or sailing I would make sure to discuss rules and possible dangers in advance. Then if I had to shout 'no' at any point it would be within the context of the earlier discussion and reasons for why they should not do that particular thing. I would also discuss it afterwards in more detail when it was safe to do so.

I love the idea that you only have to explain to a child why it's a bad idea and they won't do it.

I know all the reasons why a can of cola, a cake and bag of crisps is a dreadful breakfast. Guess what I've just had. And I enjoyed it very much, thanks for asking.

My dc were also quite capable of coming up with a counter argument to show why not going to school/drawing on the wall/eating the entire packet of Jaffa cakes was a good idea.

Sounds like too much obsession with semantics to me. I think kids pick up on tone, discussion around things and that's what matters, rather than which particular word you use or don't use.

Eg "Please could I have a biscuit?"

1. Yes, but after you've had your lunch
2. No, because lunch is nearly ready but you can have one afterwards if you eat it up.

Why are those two answers any different?

In case 1, the child will still have a biscuit whereas in case 2 the child will only hear they can NOT have a biscuit and the fact they will have a biscuit is something conditional (they need to et all their lunch first, they might not be that hungry/don't like the food whatever)
That's a big difference.
Another one would be for me,
Yes you can have one after unch. See if you are still hungry after eating your lunch.
Because I don't want them to force themselves to either eat the biscuit or eat the whole lunch just to be able to have the biscuit.

But with an older child (from 7~8yo?) I would probably just ask them what they think is more reasonable first and encourage them to make the right choice themselves.

Witch is totally right. The ability to out limits for yourself (eg not eat a packed of crips for b'fast) is a hard one. And my two dcs (now teenagers) have both told me that they need me to put these boundaries and enforce them. Because they know on a rational level, they should do X and y (usually linked with homework or playing on electronic devices) but they find it extremely hard to impose those limits to themselves.
The thing is, I WANT them to learn how to do that because they will need it as an adult. I won't always be there to tell them what to do (one of the big issue IMO with telling children NO with no explanation and expecting children to do as they are told)

Btw witch explaining DOES work. My dcs would never eat a packed of crips for b'fast and they are actually very good at making the right choice overall because they have the tools to decide.

Counter arguments are great IMO. The issue with them is that I need to be very clear as to WHY I think X or y is better than their solution.
You can't just impose your PoV. You need to at least be able to defend and explain why you think it's best.

Eg "Please could I have a biscuit?"
1) Yes, but after you've had your lunch
2) No, because lunch is nearly ready but you can have one afterwards if you eat it up.
Why are those two answers any different?

Good question. From what I remember it’s because speech is linear. You start to react to the first word you hear and that changes how you process all the rest. If you try making up a few adult requests (Can I borrow the car?) you can see how just starting the same answer with “yes, after lunch” or “no, but you can have it after lunch” feels different. The first word packs the biggest punch.

And if you have a child who is easily anxious or distracted or frustrated, they hear the “no” and start reacting and you’ve lost them altogether. They may not even take in the rest.

What if they actually can't have a biscuit? What if they had a sweet snack earlier and they just aren't having another one? Do you just give in and let them have one to avoid having to say no?

I think that what is clear here is that the tone and the intention of people's response to their kids is important. I think the subtle things are what make each family unique- when and how you joke, when you explain, when you say "no", how you listen, the tone of your interactions over all the years you have together.

Nicky I would just say: "Have some more lunch if you are hungry". My kids know me well enough to know that I don't let them eat a lot of sugar...

But I haven't claimed never to say "no". I just think it should be avoided as much as possible, and good habits should be modelled and taught in as positive a way as possible. I also chose, when my kids were small, to minimise conflict by not having things around that are addictive and that need rationing.

When my dcs were little, I would have just said 'It's two biscuits for snack' or something along those lines.

The thing is that it's not about always saying YES to whatever a child is asking bit about enforcing boundaries wo saying NO.

A bit like they said that you should never say to a child what they shouldn't do (eg don't think of a pink elephant leads to.... Thinking of a pink elephant) but always telling what to do instead.
Very similar attitude. Yoou don't say NO, you say YES but YES to something different iyswim.

Kleinzeit thanks. Understood. In fairness, it's sometimes like that in a work context, isn't it? American colleagues would say "I disagree", whereas a British person will usually say "Yes, but....". That said - I've seen that lead to misunderstandings!!

Ah, cultural differences

What British People Say...

Kleinzeit Love it! So true..... I'm embarrassed to say I use many of those myself!

I would add that in my mind, not saying no is linked to a parenting approach that encourages independence and the child to make the right choices themselves as they view these choices positively, understand why we do certain things and have autonomy over their own choices. As opposed to a parenting approach that teaches absolute respect and obedience to authority figures with no questions or explanations, with less independence of thought encouraged. Not to say that this would apply to all no/not no parents but is an extension of the philosophies.

I agree suitable. I had a lot more independence as a child than my friends. I was allowed to go out on my own at a younger age, and to stay out later. I was generally given a lot more choice and that choice was respected even if looking back I sort of regret some of them. The only thing I had to do was be prepared to discuss it, give my reasons and hear my parents out. I also had to live with the consequences of my actions and take responsibility for my choices.

I absolutely disagree with the idea that not saying no means you are always saying yes. For example i rarely buy things for dd on a whim because she asks for it there and then. If she asks for a toy when we are out I will say she can add it to her birthday list and we will see if she gets it then. She now knows this line so well when she wanted something she had seen another child with this morning she said to me 'mummy, can I have a watch for my birthday?'. This turns a negative 'no you can't have it' into something for her to look forward to (her bday is in march). When we get near her birthday I'll ask her what she wants and if she remembers the watch I'll get her one.

I do this with dd mainly because if I talk to her like this I get far less arguments and tantrums. It stops things being a stand off and I get what I want more often and more easily than if I say no all the time. I would say that in a lot of ways we are actually pretty strict parents and have pretty high expectations of behaviour. The idea that not just saying no means you allow your child to run riot and do whatever comes into their head is rubbish.

My child is old enough to be told 'no' and gets told 'no' often. Does that make me a bad parent? Children need to know the difference between right and wrong. When they are at a young age, it's impossible to reason with them, so you have to say 'no'. When my daughter is older, I don't think I'll stop saying 'no', but I will give reasons.

No one is talking about being a good parent or a bad parent here.
Just different choices and ways to approach things.
One will work well fur you but not for me and the other around. It doesn't mean you are right and I'm wrong (or I'm right and you are wrong)....

People have just explained how they are doing things s d why they are and why they think it's a good way to approach things.

You can do something different and that's totally ok too :)

Btw I do think that who your dcs are makes a big difference. I don't do things the same way with dc1 and dc2 and have said NO to dc1 more often than dc2. Because saying NO to dc2, even now that he is nearly a teenager, just doesn't get the right reaction. I still have strict boundaries though, same with both children

what I find gas I sting with this thread is how it's full of different ways to parent a child and to teach them right from wrong whilst doing it in a very different way than the conventional yes/no approach.

I've used the 'put it on your b'day lust a lot' too and lots of explaining too.
I remember dc1 when he was about 4yo asking for yogurt with Thomas on. I started my usual, yes you can have some yogurt but shall we take xx instead. The yogurt inside will be the same. Dc1 looked at me, sighed very heavily and said 'yes I KNOW that. It was just nicer to get the ones with Thomas on' lol.

We use the birthday /Christmas list (well Santa and birthday fairy because she's small) too. It works well for us and stops the tantrums before the start. In fact she now simply says "can this go on my list for the birthday fairy ?"

I also agree that it's the first word that sets up the reaction to a sentence. Most things can be handled positively. We have found this approach makes for a calmer house.

I'm detecting a bit of a goady note here... no? I don't know I'm just sensing a desire to find the weak spot of this theory and see it come crashing down.

Anyway will answer in good faith. I don't think there is really a weak spot, it's not some "out there" suggestion when you boil it down to what it really means. And obv just like every parenting goal (minimal screen time, always saying please/thank you, never shouting, eating healthy balanced diet etc) there is the idea and then there is the reality.

The way I understood this method when DS was little was that no should only be the answer to a direct question/request, not that it's a dirty word and should be avoided at all times. It's the command of "no" that is the problem, if that makes sense.

It's just two things about "no" that can be improved - it's vague, same as "stop that" "don't do that" etc. Very little children and some older developmentally delayed children don't have the framework that adults have to instinctively understand which of the actions they're currently doing is the wrong one. It's better to identify the action directly either by physically stopping them from doing it or verbally communicating what is wrong. I used to use words like "hot" and "yuck" or "not yours" when DS was a baby rather than no because these are more communicative/specific.

Then the second issue is it's negative. Not in the way of "My precious baby must never hear an angry word" because of course, life doesn't work like that, there IS negativity just the same as positivity and you need a balance. It's more that it's grammatically negative, as in it accompanies a sentence which includes "not". No shouting, no running, don't throw food, stop hitting etc all tell the child what you want them not to do. It's the old "don't think about an elephant". It's more productive, more direct, faster and less likely to invoke argument to rephrase and say what you do want. (Talk nicely/we walk by roads/put it on the side of your plate/be careful (or) gentle) It does take a bit of practice at first but you very quickly get into the habit of it.

DS always responded just fine when other adults told him no. It wasn't that he didn't expect to ever hear the word, it's just I thought that other ways of communicating "that isn't okay" made more sense.

It depends on the age of your child too. I say no when I mean no, if something I'd hot I'd say hot etc but sometimes no is the best word for it. In the biscuit example if my ds came to me asking for cake (one of the few words he can say at 2.6 as he's speech delayed) sometimes the answer is no, I don't usually have it in so if he just isn't going to get some cake I'll say 'no, the cake is all gone, we might get some more tomorrow', if I said 'yes you can have some, we'll buy some tomorrow' he would hear 'yes'and get upset.

Ds has only ever been in any way violent towards another child once (never been a biter or anything), we were at toggle group I watched from across the room as a little girl snatched a toy off ds, ds snatched it back and pushed her over. I walked up to him, got down to his level and said "no! You don't push". He has never done it again. My friend who will go to great lengths to never say no has a dd who will drag other dc around by the hair, she explains why we don't pull hair etc but her dd has been doing this for over a year. It's time to say no IMHO.

I don't think anyone would advocate the random shouting of "NO!" without any follow up or reason or for minor things but to never use it seems a little extreme. I also want my dc to know how to use the word no correctly too.